Hyperspace Combat and the Solarian Leauge Navy

lyonheart wrote:But I'm glad we've finally gotten to the core truth here, that you really weren't that serious about this concept.

Dude.

It is a fictional universe.

We already know where "it" is going. The universe at this point is embedded in ceramacrete.

Everything everyone posts is in jest in regards to strats or tech. Why I haven't bothered to put anyone on the ignore list. Nothing anyone posts here is going to change up coming books. RFC has long since planned it all out. No one is "serious" about a concept. Rather just playing with the stew and giving it a good swirl.

Only person who actually needs to be semi serious on this forum is RFC as it is making him quite a bit of moolah.

If you wanted a "serious" discussion, where minutia is very important you can attend plenty of settings where real matters are being attended to. Placating everyone's feelings is first priority and getting anything done is second as you are trying to build a consensus first and action second. Little trust factor is required.

Only reason I bother posting on this forum is for fun by poking people in the ribs, having my ribs tickled, nose swiped, or my hand slapped in return. When joking around, you start with the action and then worry about feelings after the fact. Why I have never posted regarding the upcoming movie, movie character depictions etc.

Hi Alizon,

I'm sorry, I thought I posted this last night and discovered it wasn't 'up' just now, again my apologies.

My 'childish' remarks were indeed intemperate.

I can honestly plead a lack of sleep was involved in my 'pathetic' temper tantrum, which you can check by my posts via their time hacks.

Wondering about the 'what-ifs' is part of involving yourself in any story and often any tiny aspect of that story, and so I should have been more understanding of what you were attempting to do; as we can all be quite moved by a single simple phrase or clause, such as RAH's "finished the salad and handed it to the refrigerator" in SiaSL has stayed with me since I read it 45+ years ago.

Regarding the SL's survival, I don't think it deserves to survive, nor I see a sign its really begun to make the required decisions to do so; the leaders such as they are remain grossly ignorant of the danger they're in nor all the potential ramifications of their short sighted decisions, too many just hoping they can scrape by the current mess and return to their previous routine of ripping everyone off beyond the old league core rather than truly reforming what they know needs to be fixed.

We have only the thoughts of Kolokoltsov regarding his regard for the prospect of reform and survival NTM to judge the rest of the Mandarins, obviously we haven't read their thoughts for some very good RFC type reasons, so their ulterior motives are quite suspect; from her various comments Omosupe Quartermain is an obvious Mesa shill, Nathan MacArtney is not that bright to start with and certainly not willing to reform the OFS etc, though we have no textev he's as influenced by Mesa as Quartermain he doesn't need to be; Malachai Abruzzi is too cynical and too selfish, too predatory and too quickly oriented towards expediency to seriously consider let alone support the required reforms; while Agata Wodoslawski might be cautiously receptive to some of Kolokoltzov's possible reforms, we have no textev she's not as venal as the rest of them.

Given how the MAlign likes to manipulate from the shadows, and Captain soon-to-be Admiral Gweon's comments, he may be the nearest MAlg agent to Kolokoltsov, the other mandarins may have their CoS's or chief secretary as the MAlign influence, but who doubts its there?

Kingsford is hardly a fresh broom, so who do you see fixing things and leading the way for the SL's survival?

Regarding your hyper defense, when I first read MoH where HH took 8th Fleet into Haven, but left it ten LM's from the hyper limit I was concerned because it seemed so obvious the RHN could drop right on top of it well within energy range etc, unless there a lot more lesser ships [destroyers to cruisers] still up in hyper, guarding the back door, through all the pertinent hyper bands, probably in pairs to provide adequate warning [30 min-1 hour?].

Because 8th Fleet couldn't sustain that tempo for the weeks and month's of the negotiations, I considered it had probably moved into the RZ of one of the gas giants like Yeltsin's Uriel that had an RZ of almost 5 LM, far away from the commercial operations, of which RD's vetted every cargo barge etc though deep enough to avoid a surprise attack yet well within range of anyone trying to reset their hyper generators after launching any missile salvo's [ie 4-8 minutes] of at least 2 LM, though 2.5 would put it beyond the primary effective extreme range of the RHN's MDM's, were the RHN to pop out and launch away at them.

That never happened, ie there's no textev for it because such a hyper attack is evidently precluded when proper precautions are taken.

Given how important hyper scouts and relays have been demonstrated since HH did it so many years ago in FIE, contacting the BC's simulating being an SD screen IIRC, I suspect the GA as a whole is quite experienced and adept at ensuring such precautions against being surprised are SOP for all fleet maneuvers and movements, so neither can surprise the other, while Kingsford also seems to be of the same mind.

L

Alizon wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi Alizon,

My apologies.

I didn't realise what a sensitive woman you were, I'm sorry to hurt your feelings that way.

As a matter of fact, your gender wasn't important to me, the value and accuracy of your ideas were; I thought that was how things were supposed to work.

But I'm glad we've finally gotten to the core truth here, that you really weren't that serious about this concept.

Making that clear would have helped the discussion.

But congratulations on being so convincing, because I really thought you were being really really invested in defending the SL's survival despite all the obvious evidence, so I was almost beginning to worry about your mental thinking, it was so repetitive.

Imagination is obviously very important, but why revealing your gender is important or justification for flaming is something else again.

I am glad you're another lady fan of RFC, I'm friends with several BTW, and I'll give you full credit for imagining the hyper defense concept; but after 8 years of posting at the bar and the forums, seeing and yes even making some suggestions on how to try to save the SL early on, then seeing the same old, same old ideas has obviously reduced my patience for this subject which has gotten rather tiresome IMO, some of of my comments in my last post to you were over the top and for that I apologize.

I'm glad you've recognised there's no textev to support your hyper defense concept, and it was clever in a way; but being aware of all the clues or hints should have been accounted for earlier in your arguments, to be fair to your readers, and who knows, perhaps you actually hit something RFC overlooked, I doubt it but if you're right, then kudos.

I've had RFC correct my impressions of how things work or could because of clues I'd overlooked more times than I want to remember.

I've also forgotten how often I was right.

Claiming your imagination overrules or supplants the rules of the honorverse, though also used by other posters here, doesn't cut that much ice with me or other posters.

Regarding my imagination, its been directed at what RFC hasn't told us yet; I've been expressing it in several thousand posts here and at the bar over the years and I suspect RFC has been irked by at least a few of my posts, given his rather negative responses.

I've been curious about almost everything in the honorverse etc that's still a mystery; what's going to happen next after CoG, NTM about how the honor-verse works; how big is the human colonized part of the galaxy or the MMM, how much does a MDM cost and how many can the SKM/SEM or Haven afford to make every day; or for example just how large is Manticore's economic and financial impact on the SL, given it gets news so much faster than anywhere else, ie much of the SL's vibrant trade and financial heart is in the SKM because it has to be.

Being told you have too much testosterone is a compliment to most real men; if you feel I was bullying you because you were a woman, I apologize for not noticing any clues you gave.

But kudos for "adapting, improvising, and overcoming" the obstacles in your life.

While the marines made it a credo, all adults by definition do it, so congratulations again.

Good luck with your future ideas and posts; I've liked some in the past as you know, and know I will again in the future.

L

Lyonheart,

I don't think that the terms used by you were ones that are likely to endear you to many regardless of gender. I give respect to other posters regardless of whether I agree with them or not, I expect the same in return. That's not being a "sensitive woman" it's called common courtesy and civility where I come from.

Yes we are supposed to discuss ideas but using words such as "childish" and "pathetic" amongst others are hardly conducive to any kind of rational debate. It wasn't that you countered my argument that irritated me, it was the additional comment that I found offensive and unnecessary.

I'm well aware that, having been raised by a Marine, I'm familiar with the credo you mentioned. I don't think most people would call me sensitive, they'd call me someone who stands their ground when it's ground worth standing on.

That being said, thanks for the apology and I share your desire to not have any further unpleasantness with you.

I do want to comment however on "seriousness". I am very serious on the matters I've presented here. While I've found them challenging I'm the sort who relishes to the prospect of taking the "unwinnable" situation and attempting to figure out how to win anyway.

Having said that, nothing that I have knowingly said doesn't have a thread of logic based on information drawn from the books and available information about the Honorverse. I regard this as something different from RFC's intended story arc because the Honorverse and the story arc are not exactly the same. The Honorverse is the information we have about the setting and the forces at work within it. From any particular point in time, how things develop are based on the actions to be taken by those involved.

RFC will look at those conditions and determine how those decisions will be made, what actions will take place and write about it. However, from the same starting point, different decisions and actions can lead to different results. Those results are still based on the Honorverse, they may simply be different that what RFC intends to write.

This doesn't mean that evaluations which lead in a different direction than RFC will ultimately move aren't based on something or have no evidence to support them or that they aren't "serious".

For example, I can fairly easily look at the information available and predict that the events of Oyster Bay are likely to slow and blunt Alliance actions vs the League. This can give the League some time to do the things they need to do to survive. All of the information that the leaders of the League need to make effective decisions is almost certainly literally at their fingertips and none of them reached the positions they've attained by being dumb. Hence, all of the conditions for the League to take effective steps is present.

But as has been pointed out, even if the ingredients are present, it's like having everything you need to bake a cake except for the willingness to actually do the baking part. If the League could find enough people in the right position to do the baking, it could, based on the information available in the books, survive.

If all of these things are true, then the question is, will the leaders of the League use those ingredients in a way which gives the League a chance, or will they hesitate, ignore them or use them improperly instead.

By far the most likely answer to that questions is "no they won't". The intriguing question is, "what if they did?"

Anyway, thanks for your response.

Hi J6P,

Again I apologise for being so rough, and as the rest of my posts indicate, that's not my normal style at all.

I agree most of the plot has been set in ceramacrete for a number of years, as the scene in MoH where Abby & Co do SAR without marines was foreshadowed by a pearl or two several years earlier; RFC is just trying to catch up on his drafts and notes from years back, but we fans pester him when he should be working to finish our next fix.

Kudos for your humor, its always appreciated.

Keeping it light is hard depending on the subject, particularly when some posters aren't serious enough or ignore the textev and expressed limits of the honorverse, Alizon being less a violator than some best left unnamed.

L

J6P wrote:

lyonheart wrote:But I'm glad we've finally gotten to the core truth here, that you really weren't that serious about this concept.

Dude.

It is a fictional universe.

We already know where "it" is going. The universe at this point is embedded in ceramacrete.

Everything everyone posts is in jest in regards to strats or tech. Why I haven't bothered to put anyone on the ignore list. Nothing anyone posts here is going to change up coming books. RFC has long since planned it all out. No one is "serious" about a concept. Rather just playing with the stew and giving it a good swirl.

Only person who actually needs to be semi serious on this forum is RFC as it is making him quite a bit of moolah.

If you wanted a "serious" discussion, where minutia is very important you can attend plenty of settings where real matters are being attended to. Placating everyone's feelings is first priority and getting anything done is second as you are trying to build a consensus first and action second. Little trust factor is required.

Only reason I bother posting on this forum is for fun by poking people in the ribs, having my ribs tickled, nose swiped, or my hand slapped in return. When joking around, you start with the action and then worry about feelings after the fact. Why I have never posted regarding the upcoming movie, movie character depictions etc.

lyonheart wrote:Regarding your hyper defense, when I first read MoH where HH took 8th Fleet into Haven, but left it ten LM's from the hyper limit I was concerned because it seemed so obvious the RHN could drop right on top of it well within energy range etc, unless there a lot more lesser ships [destroyers to cruisers] still up in hyper, guarding the back door, through all the pertinent hyper bands, probably in pairs to provide adequate warning [30 min-1 hour?].

Because 8th Fleet couldn't sustain that tempo for the weeks and month's of the negotiations, I considered it had probably moved into the RZ of one of the gas giants like Yeltsin's Uriel that had an RZ of almost 5 LM, far away from the commercial operations, of which RD's vetted every cargo barge etc though deep enough to avoid a surprise attack yet well within range of anyone trying to reset their hyper generators after launching any missile salvo's [ie 4-8 minutes] of at least 2 LM, though 2.5 would put it beyond the primary effective extreme range of the RHN's MDM's, were the RHN to pop out and launch away at them.

First, I want to thank you for your apology and explanation (the part I didn't quote).

Second, I agree you should take precautions against getting pounced at close range from hyper. However, given the imprecision of hyper navigation and the difficulty of hitting a precise aimpoint, it'd still take a lot of luck to emerge within 500,000 km of your target.


After all the second part of Giscards Basilisk raid (in EoH), the pounce on the terminus forts, missed by 23,700,000 km! They missed by significantly more that their missile range (still SDMs), much less energy range.

So there's serious risk for the attacker that they'll emerge far enough out that they just get their clock cleaned by Apollo fire before their hyper generators can cycle and allow them to escape. (But again, you'd still defend against the risk because if they did get lucky it'd be fairly devastating)

The fact that the Basilisk raid was even attempted suggests that the Peeps had a reasonable expectation of coming out of hyper within missile range of the terminus. The RMN was lucky that the RHN had a FUBAR.

When Honor made her courtesy call at Nouvou Paris, there was a theoretical risk of such a counter attack. That risk would be mitigated if the RHN home fleet was too deep in the system to go into hyperdrive. Honor no doubt took the further precaution of deploying scouts in the various hyper bands.

Jonathan_S wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Regarding your hyper defense, when I first read MoH where HH took 8th Fleet into Haven, but left it ten LM's from the hyper limit I was concerned because it seemed so obvious the RHN could drop right on top of it well within energy range etc, unless there a lot more lesser ships [destroyers to cruisers] still up in hyper, guarding the back door, through all the pertinent hyper bands, probably in pairs to provide adequate warning [30 min-1 hour?].

Because 8th Fleet couldn't sustain that tempo for the weeks and month's of the negotiations, I considered it had probably moved into the RZ of one of the gas giants like Yeltsin's Uriel that had an RZ of almost 5 LM, far away from the commercial operations, of which RD's vetted every cargo barge etc though deep enough to avoid a surprise attack yet well within range of anyone trying to reset their hyper generators after launching any missile salvo's [ie 4-8 minutes] of at least 2 LM, though 2.5 would put it beyond the primary effective extreme range of the RHN's MDM's, were the RHN to pop out and launch away at them.

First, I want to thank you for your apology and explanation (the part I didn't quote).

Second, I agree you should take precautions against getting pounced at close range from hyper. However, given the imprecision of hyper navigation and the difficulty of hitting a precise aimpoint, it'd still take a lot of luck to emerge within 500,000 km of your target.


After all the second part of Giscards Basilisk raid (in EoH), the pounce on the terminus forts, missed by 23,700,000 km! They missed by significantly more that their missile range (still SDMs), much less energy range.

So there's serious risk for the attacker that they'll emerge far enough out that they just get their clock cleaned by Apollo fire before their hyper generators can cycle and allow them to escape. (But again, you'd still defend against the risk because if they did get lucky it'd be fairly devastating)

Hi Jonathan_S,

The navigator's error in the Icarus raid on Basilisk was essentially one Light Minute from almost 2 Light Month's out for something near 86,400 to 1.

Even at that same lousy ratio, microjumpimg over several Light Minutes to a few Light Hours by our various heroes is much more precise, as demonstrated by the normal space ambushes from hyper we've seen.

L


[quote="Jonathan_S"][quote="lyonheart"]
Regarding your hyper defense, when I first read MoH where HH took 8th Fleet into Haven, but left it ten LM's from the hyper limit I was concerned because it seemed so obvious the RHN could drop right on top of it well within energy range etc, unless there a lot more lesser ships [destroyers to cruisers] still up in hyper, guarding the back door, through all the pertinent hyper bands, probably in pairs to provide adequate warning [30 min-1 hour?].

Because 8th Fleet couldn't sustain that tempo for the weeks and month's of the negotiations, I considered it had probably moved into the RZ of one of the gas giants like Yeltsin's Uriel that had an RZ of almost 5 LM, far away from the commercial operations, of which RD's vetted every cargo barge etc though deep enough to avoid a surprise attack yet well within range of anyone trying to reset their hyper generators after launching any missile salvo's [ie 4-8 minutes] of at least 2 LM, though 2.5 would put it beyond the primary effective extreme range of the RHN's MDM's, were the RHN to pop out and launch away at them.[/quote]First, I want to thank you for your apology and explanation (the part I didn't quote).

Second, I agree you should take precautions against getting pounced at close range from hyper. However, given the imprecision of hyper navigation and the difficulty of hitting a precise aimpoint, it'd still take a lot of luck to emerge within 500,000 km of your target.


After all the second part of Giscards Basilisk raid (in EoH), the pounce on the terminus forts, missed by 23,700,000 km! They missed by significantly more that their [i]missile range[/i] (still SDMs), much less energy range.

So there's serious risk for the attacker that they'll emerge far enough out that they just get their clock cleaned by Apollo fire before their hyper generators can cycle and allow them to escape. (But again, you'd still defend against the risk because if they [i]did[/i] get lucky it'd be fairly devastating)[/quote]

Hi WhiteCold,

I'm revisiting this post because rereading SFtS reminded me Visigoth is part of the RF, with a large SDF, though Mannerheim apparently has the largest in the whole SL; up almost to 800 hyper warships, according to another RFC pearl.

However if HA-H and or Chein-lu or both plus Beowulf were to descend on the WHJ suddenly, given the MAlign's plan to use the SDF for later operations, I doubt Roman Hitchcock would object, possibly in part because he expects Mesa to be in such chaos, it won't do any good, and possibly earn the GA some more blame.

Of course, there could still be a large SLN base at the junction as well, but I expect the VSN to be more of a problem tactically than the SLN, BF fleet or anchorage.

How do you suggest either HA-H or Hertzog von Rabenstrange handle it?

Would an AMC or freighter with a bunch of Mistletoe's etc be able to shut down all traffic to Mesa for 5 days, until HA-H or HvR arrived 5 days later?

L

Whitecold wrote:I suspect Visigoth not being on the Lacoon list has more to do with it being in the core of the league, and the GA not wanting to use Beowulf for offensive operations.
As for the Andermani, some of their SD(P)'s have been apollo-refitted, and were part of 8th fleet, one squadron of those definitely can reduce anything in the Visigoth system to scrap, however strong their defenses are.

lyonheart wrote:Hi SYED,

We have no clue what the Visigoth defenses may be.

I've suggested there's a SLN base there, because it apparently hasn't been taken by the light forces we've seen so far in Lacoon 2, but what kind of defenses, particularly for the wormhole, your guess is as good as mine.

The Andermanni empire was the SKM's largest single trading pardner before the war [Beowulf was the largest single system trading pardner], a major part being their tech was so close to the SKM's; their quick attempt to make up the Ghost rider military tech was less than optimum as RFC has put it, but that was before the alliance.

Apollo missiles weren't being produced yet, but 'regular' Mk-23's were IIRC; and various programs to bring them up to RMN/GSN mil-tech standards were underway or had been completed by OB, some posters suggested the IAN had more Apollo SDP's after BoMA or 1st BoM than either the RMN or GSN and would take due advantage, but that was squelched quickly.

Before joining the MA, the IAN was building only 130 SDP's and converting them all to RMN standard took a while, but given almost another year since BoMA, most should be available besides any early war construction.

I can see the IAN sending a TF with 4 SDP's squadrons [32], mainly for redundancy and Mesa, since only 2 ought to be enough.

Given IAN sneakiness, I wouldn't be surprised if they used freighters etc to send RD's in as Terekhov did at Monica.

L


**quote="SYED"**Do we know how extensive most terminni defences are?
Say Visigoth has mostly ships and some platforms, say the andies send the most podnoughts as possible, could their missile systems be superior enough to destry the oposition, especially if they send a ships with sensors in first to gther ther targeting solutions.

lyonheart wrote:Would an AMC or freighter with a bunch of Mistletoe's etc be able to shut down all traffic to Mesa for 5 days, until HA-H or HvR arrived 5 days later?

How much are they willing to die?

I'd tend to suspect that manticore isn't the only place that understands how to fortify a junction.

kzt wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Would an AMC or freighter with a bunch of Mistletoe's etc be able to shut down all traffic to Mesa for 5 days, until HA-H or HvR arrived 5 days later?

How much are they willing to die?

I'd tend to suspect that manticore isn't the only place that understands how to fortify a junction.

Whatever the fortifications are, they are not equipped with Apollo MDM pods. A few squadrons of podnoughts will be able to take them out from maximum range if they attack through hyperspace, and not try to force through junction, which I guess will be at least seeded with mines.

I seem to remember someone once describing the defenses of lynx terminus as sufficient to hold off 250 SD(p)s. That was pre-Apollo iirc, but still....