Non-weapons of war, weapons of war

iranuke wrote:My personal opinion is that if you can produce a rifle assembly line with pneumatic tools, you have the machining capability to produce a diesel: if you can produce 10" naval rifles, you have the founding capabilities to produce diesel: if you can produce piping, valves and triple expansion steam engines operating at 280 psi, you can produce a workable diesel. If RFC wanted diesel, Charis would have diesel. They have the capacity to produce them at need. Right now they don't need them.

What would be the compression of what we will call a primitive, yet useful diesel engine?

Don

I just had an awesome idea.
The church has been subtly using its influence to reduce the number of literate people in the world. Imagine if charis published one of those books that help to tech people or children to read. They are spread and help people out. The inquisition would be seen hunting books are not dangerous, just educational, yet the long term implications threaten the power of the church.
I don't know why but the inquisitors forced to go after books with talking dragons make me laugh.

The church run casinos and other gambling houses if I remember right. So why nit break the bank. Merlin could rig and fix many games and events to drain the church, and the church would be unable to prove anything except dwindling money reserves. Imagine the reputation of the church if they can't cover their bets.

n7axw wrote:What would be the compression of what we will call a primitive, yet useful diesel engine?

Primitive diesels like these?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcJfGecjaRw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_0xifuTqVA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h25mnl5Ofek

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chvNM_pE3vU

Charis certainly has the capability to cast and machine such engines, but I really don't see where they're much of an improvement over Steam Engines of similar vintage.

SYED wrote:I don't know why but the inquisitors forced to go after books with talking dragons make me laugh.

That might just hurt their reputation a wee bit...

Weird Harold wrote:
Primitive diesels like these?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcJfGecjaRw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_0xifuTqVA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h25mnl5Ofek

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chvNM_pE3vU

Charis certainly has the capability to cast and machine such engines, but I really don't see where they're much of an improvement over Steam Engines of similar vintage.

There´s a difference between primitive and large. The links show engines that are either large or both large and primitive.
Not representative.

Tenshinai wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:
Primitive diesels like these?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcJfGecjaRw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_0xifuTqVA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h25mnl5Ofek

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chvNM_pE3vU

Charis certainly has the capability to cast and machine such engines, but I really don't see where they're much of an improvement over Steam Engines of similar vintage.

There´s a difference between primitive and large. The links show engines that are either large or both large and primitive.
Not representative.

Try these:
http://www.kids.esdb.bg/diesel.html
The first diesels were large and primitive. Early steam engines however make them look like a piece of clockwork.
Mechanically the same manufacturing techniques are needed for a 300 psi (2000kPa) steam engine and a simple diesel. More modern diesels are an entirely different beast (particularly the supercharged diesels we take for granted today - which are half the progeny of the gas turbine industry). Ships stuck with steam for a long time for a simple reason, steam is simply reliable.
Diesels are complex beasts and require gears or other power transmission systems (electric or hydraulic traction motors) as they have a very limited turn down ratio - less than 10% (i.e. idle at 700 RPM, maximum speed 3500 RPM - (typical for truck engines) - 5 to 1) which is why you see trucks with 20 speed gear boxes (and my diesel car has a 7 speed transmission).
Steam engines don't need to idle and therefore you don't need a clutch or gears to start from stationary.
In short diesels are complex, not because of the engine but because of the power transmission. Complex gearboxes are not optional with diesels - they are mandatory.
(Diesels are useful for constant speed applications - like electricity generation for exactly these reasons).

Tenshinai wrote:

SYED wrote:I don't know why but the inquisitors forced to go after books with talking dragons make me laugh.

That might just hurt their reputation a wee bit...

Yeah, I have trouble imagining inquisitors confiscating copies of "Clifford the Big Red Dog"

AirTech wrote:

Try these:
http://www.kids.esdb.bg/diesel.html
The first diesels were large and primitive. Early steam engines however make them look like a piece of clockwork.
Mechanically the same manufacturing techniques are needed for a 300 psi (2000kPa) steam engine and a simple diesel. More modern diesels are an entirely different beast (particularly the supercharged diesels we take for granted today - which are half the progeny of the gas turbine industry). Ships stuck with steam for a long time for a simple reason, steam is simply reliable.
Diesels are complex beasts and require gears or other power transmission systems (electric or hydraulic traction motors) as they have a very limited turn down ratio - less than 10% (i.e. idle at 700 RPM, maximum speed 3500 RPM - (typical for truck engines) - 5 to 1) which is why you see trucks with 20 speed gear boxes (and my diesel car has a 7 speed transmission).
Steam engines don't need to idle and therefore you don't need a clutch or gears to start from stationary.
In short diesels are complex, not because of the engine but because of the power transmission. Complex gearboxes are not optional with diesels - they are mandatory.
(Diesels are useful for constant speed applications - like electricity generation for exactly these reasons).


I think you need to take a closer look at what is required to keep a triple expansion engine running. The vaunted reliability of steam stems largely from redundancy and not from the reliability of the multitude of its separate parts.

Dutch46 wrote:I think you need to take a closer look at what is required to keep a triple expansion engine running. The vaunted reliability of steam stems largely from redundancy and not from the reliability of the multitude of its separate parts.

I don't recall anyone claiming reliability as an advantage for steam power. One reason ICEs took over so completely is the maintenance to operations ratio for steam is so costly. Steam engines can take all day to raise steam, require constant oiling and monitoring, and a host of other tasks to start up or shut down.

What Steam engines offer is maintainability: A decent blacksmith can rebuild almost any part needed.

Steam also offers versatility: external combustion means the boiler can be fired by solid, liquid, or gaseous fuel; everything from buffalo chips to cow farts can fuel a steam engine. (some fuels are obviously better than others. )

In Safehold's case, Steam also can pass the inquisition -- at least a Charisian inquisition.

Steam isn't a permanent solution, but it can fill the gaps until the Go4 is defeated and the Proscriptions can be lifted.

Weird Harold wrote:I don't recall anyone claiming reliability as an advantage for steam power.

IIRC, AirTech did. Or someone at least...

Weird Harold wrote:What Steam engines offer is maintainability: A decent blacksmith can rebuild almost any part needed.

Only if you stick to the very lowend kind of engines, running on low pressure. A decent blacksmith may still be good enough, but if he doesn´t know the pitfalls, things are probably going to go *BOOOM*.

Weird Harold wrote:In Safehold's case, Steam also can pass the inquisition -- at least a Charisian inquisition.

Like i said before, if gaslights can get by, then ICE probably can.

Weird Harold wrote:One reason ICEs took over so completely is the maintenance to operations ratio for steam is so costly. Steam engines can take all day to raise steam, require constant oiling and monitoring, and a host of other tasks to start up or shut down.

Don´t i know it! (my brother used to drive a lot of steam train engines once upon a time)