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Just how big is Frontier Fleet?

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Just how big is Frontier Fleet?
Post by Hutch   » Sun May 18, 2014 8:39 pm

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Well, we know from textev that it is supposed to augment the screen for Battle Fleet in the course of any major war and that that it is overworked. But how much have we seen?

For example, the Meyers sector had a Division of BC's (with Thurgood), one Light Cruiser and three old destroyers (at Mobius)...and not much else. At Saltash, there was those four BC's, but that was more by happenstance, the normal force was three destroyers.

And all Roczak had in Crown of Slaves was a flotilla of destroyers and a light cruiser, IIRC. Nothing heavy at all. and that to protect one of the richest and most modern sector.

And Meyers was surprised by Bing's 3 squadrons of FF BC's, as if seeing them in such numbers was a most unusual thing.

Which makes me wonder if we're not overestimating just how many ships they have available.

Let's say there are 2,000 Protectorate/Verge worlds that need patrolling (that is probably high, but better to estimate high than low IMHO). If each Sector has about 20 planets in it, that's 100 Sectors. And if those sectors have the same level of force as Meyers/Maya did...about 10-15 ships per sector...then there may be no more than 1,500-2,000 or so front line FF ships.

Now, I do think that there are "Regional" headquarters where most of the BC forces are concentrated (Bing's taks force came from somewhere, after all), but the number of FF ships actually in the line of fire (depending on the GA strategy) may be quite a bit fewer.

After all, in Shadow of Freedom, Admiral Dubroskaya (prior to her demise) says:

The rest of Battlecruiser Squadron 491 was either dispersed to other star systems or in shipyard hands, but that was par for the course for Frontier Fleet. Its squadrons were always understrength, and there were always too many places they needed to be at the same time.
Italics mine.

Which makes me wonder just what the best strategy for the GA is regarding the Verge/Protectorates and dealing with Frontier Fleet. Take out the (albeit theoretic) Regional strong-points, try to subdue the Sector capitals (The Henke maneuver, and oddly paralleling the ISLN basic strategy (which is now blown up real good), or ignore most of them while fracturing the SL itself, leaving them to sink, swim, or fracture themselves...

Interesting times.....we shall see, eventually.

IMHO as always. YMMV.
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Re: Just how big is Frontier Fleet?
Post by HB of CJ   » Sun May 18, 2014 9:28 pm

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Excellent question Sir. Nobody knows fur sure. We can all estimate, with the numbers all over the place. I kinda personally think that Frontier Fleet, (FF) is, (on paper) quite large, but has all the problems and concerns you have already correctly alluded too properly. (you rank me)

Gross numbers vs actual available units. Whatever the numbers may actually be, the big thing here is that the Grand Alliance, (GA) must QUICKLY take out FF completely and totally. The last thing the GA needs NOT TO DO is to give both Battle Fleet, (BF) AND the Sollies TIME!!

My personal opinion and read on this...SIR! HB of CJ (old coot) :)
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Re: Just how big is Frontier Fleet?
Post by J6P   » Sun May 18, 2014 10:08 pm

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Frontier Fleet very crude totals should be able to be surmissed from the task fleet numbering system.

I do not know if our author is using the British fleet or USN fleet numbering system. Anyone know?

From this one should be able to back track by comparing the numbering system used on RMN vessels throughout the books and total ship totals filling out said "fleets".

Yea, Yea, apples, oranges, and apricots. They are all fruits right?
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Re: Just how big is Frontier Fleet?
Post by J6P   » Sun May 18, 2014 10:21 pm

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I would put total SLN BC's at far fewer than SLN SD's in active service.

More graft on larger ships. Why would the SLN need 2400 active SD's anyways? No one else before the Havenite war even had 500! Even if one adds their DN's and BB's to the mix.

Total light units, BC, CA, CL, DD at certainly no more than 2X active SLN SD's. Otherwise it would not align with the text stating FF units(vast majority of light units) are too few for their responsibilities.
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Re: Just how big is Frontier Fleet?
Post by kzt   » Sun May 18, 2014 10:43 pm

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J6P wrote:Total light units, BC, CA, CL, DD at certainly no more than 2X active SLN SD's. Otherwise it would not align with the text stating FF units(vast majority of light units) are too few for their responsibilities.

Really? Why did Manticore, with only 3 planets, think they needed hundreds of light ships prewar? Given that there are >1800 SLN planets they would need hundreds of thousands of light ships to maintain anything like that kind of ratio.
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Re: Just how big is Frontier Fleet?
Post by HB of CJ   » Sun May 18, 2014 11:46 pm

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My best estimate, (only an estimate and probably wrong) is that Frontier Fleet, (FF) probably has a mix of ship types more weighted toward lighter vessel varieties like CAs, CEs and DDs.

This may also mean that Battle Fleet, (BF) may have a mix of more heavy ship SD, DN and BC types and fewer lighter ship numbers. FF may lean towards many more light, smaller units.

Just a guess. We do not know what they have...yet. HB of CJ (old coot)
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Re: Just how big is Frontier Fleet?
Post by roseandheather   » Sun May 18, 2014 11:55 pm

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kzt wrote:
J6P wrote:Total light units, BC, CA, CL, DD at certainly no more than 2X active SLN SD's. Otherwise it would not align with the text stating FF units(vast majority of light units) are too few for their responsibilities.

Really? Why did Manticore, with only 3 planets, think they needed hundreds of light ships prewar? Given that there are >1800 SLN planets they would need hundreds of thousands of light ships to maintain anything like that kind of ratio.

They needed all those light ships for their vast merchant marine, and because they were actively arming for war. The League doesn't give a fuck about the Verge worlds, or about Frontier Fleet - no wonder it's undermanned, understaffed, and under-armed! Contrast that with a merchant empire whose Navy is its pride and who is actively building up in anticipation of a confrontation with the PRH, it's no wonder the ratios are going to be different.
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Re: Just how big is Frontier Fleet?
Post by J6P   » Mon May 19, 2014 12:25 am

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roseandheather wrote:
kzt wrote:Really? Why did Manticore, with only 3 planets, think they needed hundreds of light ships prewar? Given that there are >1800 SLN planets they would need hundreds of thousands of light ships to maintain anything like that kind of ratio.

They needed all those light ships for their vast merchant marine, and because they were actively arming for war. The League doesn't give a fuck about the Verge worlds, or about Frontier Fleet - no wonder it's undermanned, understaffed, and under-armed! Contrast that with a merchant empire whose Navy is its pride and who is actively building up in anticipation of a confrontation with the PRH, it's no wonder the ratios are going to be different.


Couldn't have said it better.
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Re: Just how big is Frontier Fleet?
Post by SYED   » Mon May 19, 2014 12:40 am

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It might not matter how many ships they have, they have a very limited logistics network, and with wormholes closed down and the suspension of manticore shipping, they wont be able to keep themselves maintained.
If the alliance knocks out their bases, outposts and positions, they would remove potential threats. And it will take time for them to repond to the elimination o forces, longer to reposition and ammass more.
We all know at some point corrupt sollies will get ideas about being a warlord/pirate.
I am betting most of the fleet forces will be moving to either the league or the nearest taken wormhole. Then when the alliance goes on the offensive, they could be dealt with.
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Re: Just how big is Frontier Fleet?
Post by kzt   » Mon May 19, 2014 1:08 am

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roseandheather wrote:They needed all those light ships for their vast merchant marine, and because they were actively arming for war. The League doesn't give a fuck about the Verge worlds, or about Frontier Fleet - no wonder it's undermanned, understaffed, and under-armed! Contrast that with a merchant empire whose Navy is its pride and who is actively building up in anticipation of a confrontation with the PRH, it's no wonder the ratios are going to be different.

Nope, Manticore arming for war was a minority position. Read the beginning 4 pages of HoS. The entire focus of the RMN was on the 60 some Silesian systems prior to certain changes in the admiralty. That mission seems to have tied down few enough ships in the 1880s (when they were not at war or in imminent danger of war) that most systems at any given moment had no RMN presence or even a high likelihood of a RMN ship showing up RSN. The SL has a rather larger area to patrol, considering that it has anti-piracy functions for 1800 members, the same sort of protection of trade responsibility for SL ships outside the SL, and "peacekeeping" functions with the thousand plus verge worlds, which seem to require fairly constant and energetic "peacekeeping" based on what has been implied in the books. It's pretty clear that in fact that FF does take problems in the Verge seriously, for the same reason that the RMN took the SC issues seriously. Primarily that is because people with significant influence care very deeply about their money, but not the only reason.
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