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Failure and the SLN...

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Re: Failure and the SLN...
Post by Whitecold   » Fri May 16, 2014 7:14 am

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munroburton wrote:
Thanks.

I had another thought - Manty EW systems were good enough to dupe the PN quite a few times, even passing captured SDs off as BCs. Other times decoy drones simply pretended to be extra SDs.

Probably it was too late for Zavala to order his EW to work. I don't think he was expecting to have to fight four BCs until his recon platforms found them.


All the decoys only pretended to be something else already in the system, I seriously doubt they can change the signature of the alpha translation.
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Re: Failure and the SLN...
Post by Crown Loyalist   » Fri May 16, 2014 9:45 am

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namelessfly wrote:Here is an interesting thought.

SLN Admirals are aware of Bing's reaming at New Tuscany.

They are aware of Adm Crandal's reaming at Spindle.

Will word get around of Adm Fillarta's defeat at the Second BoM or will the SLN conceal it as the Japanese concealed their defeat at Midway?

If not, will we see SLN admirals continue to fight If they are encouraged by the deployment of marginally effective weapons and technology?

If so, this could be as bloody as WW-2.



The Solarians have a much bigger problem when it comes to media control than the Japanese did. Remember Esther McQueen complaining that her spacers on the front were going to hear about Harrington's return from the Solarian news net and frontier news sources before they were going to hear about it from the Havenite news. There may be no internet in space, but especially with the wormhole network still being opened to international news sources, there's a good chance that frontier fleet battle squadrons will get the news about Second Manticore from the interstellar news corporations before they hear about it from headquarters.

Plus, unless we see a turnover in Solarian leadership, I don't see Kolokoltsov or Kingsford giving that order. Kingsford has clearly decided to stop sending his fleets into hopeless combat situations and that it's time to start getting clever, and Kolokoltsov didn't seem like he was going to overrule that impulse.
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Re: Failure and the SLN...
Post by namelessfly   » Fri May 16, 2014 5:58 pm

namelessfly

Thank you for the link.

The RMN and GSN are probably building missiles for a lot less $1 million per copy but still fora lot more than $100,000 per missile.

The bottom line is that 10,000 missiles per day production is plausible, 10,000 pods per day is not.

A stockpile of one million missiles is plausible, one million pods is not.




SWM wrote:
namelessfly wrote:Replying to Lyonheart's 3:02 pm post. The nesting and snipping are not working for me today.

Where do you get the idea that Manticore and Grayson are building 10,000 pods per month?

Back in OBS HH herself commented on how expensive missiles were at about $1 million or 20 years salary each. Weber has commented on the forum that missile load out for an SD(P) cost about as much as the ship. At $10 billion per SD(P), this makes sense. Compare to a current aircraft carrier whose air wing cost as much as the carrier and a full load of AAM, ASMs ext cost as much as the aircraft. The same is true for an Ohio class ballistic missile sub.

Remember, the price of a SDM missile in OBS is more than the price of an MDM twenty years later. (See: http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/277/1) How much more, we don't know, but we can't rely on OBS missile prices.
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Re: Failure and the SLN...
Post by happycube76   » Fri May 16, 2014 7:34 pm

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I think there was a strong point made that Honor was making some pretty significant understatements in that comm, and wasn't exaggerating anything.

Certainly a lot of those pods were Havenite and older Manty DDM and MDM pods, but they were all there and could do what Honor said they could. And then some.
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Re: Failure and the SLN...
Post by dan92677   » Fri May 16, 2014 9:19 pm

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remember that someone asked Honor why they softpedaled the # of pods and she replied that she didn't want to give them the actual # because they (sollies) would really think that she was lying...
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Re: Failure and the SLN...
Post by lyonheart   » Sat May 17, 2014 6:00 am

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Hi Namelessfly.

Others have already made excellent points on some of the things you touch upon below, that 3 million pods is quite possible, and no I too don't think they'll trash anybody else's infrastructure unless they have good reason.

If you check, I suggested 10,000 missiles per day, which is what I suggested back at the bar years ago that partially provoked RFC's response, my point then being neither side could afford so many missiles [I suggested M$8-10 million each given OBS's textev costs].

Granted that could mean around 30,000 pods per month. ;)

Regarding Eighth Fleet reinforcements for Tenth Fleet, I doubt they'll be BCP's given their limited number of pods when 8th already has SDP's; rather a RHN TF with more SDP's, CLAC's and a heavy marine component, which given Mesa is only a ~100 LY in hyper from the SEM might happen faster than some expect, which will leave most local verge systems feeling they've been run over or knocked down by an air lorry or swept away by it's airflow/drag when they show up instead of the semi-expected RMN. ;)

I look forward to some possible dialog like this [thanks to Abby]:

"We're RHN not RMN, -we're RMN allies now, -don't worry about it." ;)

L


namelessfly wrote:Replying to Lyonheart's 3:02 pm post. The nesting and snipping are not working for me today.

Where do you get the idea that Manticore and Grayson are building 10,000 pods per month?

Back in OBS HH herself commented on how expensive missiles were at about $1 million or 20 years salary each. Weber has commented on the forum that missile load out for an SD(P) cost about as much as the ship. At $10 billion per SD(P), this makes sense. Compare to a current aircraft carrier whose air wing cost as much as the carrier and a full load of AAM, ASMs ext cost as much as the aircraft. The same is true for an Ohio class ballistic missile sub.

At the peak of the python lump, Manticore was building the equivalent of about 1/2 an SD(P) per day. This is $5 billion per day expenditure or $1.7 Trillion per year. If they are spending as much money on missile production, that is arguably 500 pods with missiles per day or about 180,000 per year. At $10 million per pod this works out to about $1.8 Trillion per year. Let us not forget construction cost and ammo for light combatants at may be another $trillion per year.

When can quibble about details, but the point is that Manticore can not suffer the missile expenditures and ship losses of First BoM, then get reamed in OB, then expend probably 1/4
million missiles to ream Adm Filarta and still have vast stockpiles of missiles. Remember how Adm Henke had her Apollo pods recalled after OB? Remember Adm Henke and the Cabptains implementing Case Lacoon II worrying about missile expenditures and Mk-23s much less Apollo being less plentiful than Mk-16s which they could not afford to waste either.

Also consider that after the First BoM, there must have been something like one million expended missile pods floating around. In HAE, Weber describes retrieving and reloading missile pods. No doubt the RMN retrieved iits own missile pods and may be Haven's. Honor told Adm Filarta that she had shit loads of missile pods. She did not tell him that all or even most of the pods were loaded. May be they were empty pods?

My point her is that in spite of our number crunching, the RMN and GSN characters obviously worry about ammo supplies. Since their opinions are informed by MWW, I will defer to their opinion.

The Battle of Saltash probably gave the RMN more confidence in it's ability to destroy the SLN with it's limited ammo. However; the RMN and GSN not to mention RHN have no combat experience against the Malign. They will make worse case assumptions about how many ships and missiles they hold in reserve to guard their home systems.

My prediction is that Tenth Fleet augmented by an expeditionary force of BC(P)s from Eighth Fleet is all that the GA will commit to offensive operations against the SL. They will destroy SLN fleet bases and SLN ships wherever they find them. They will nuke operational shipyards capable of building warships. They will not be trashing anyone else anytime soon.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Failure and the SLN...
Post by Hutch   » Sat May 17, 2014 8:30 am

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lyonheart wrote: Regarding Eighth Fleet reinforcements for Tenth Fleet, I doubt they'll be BCP's given their limited number of pods when 8th already has SDP's; rather a RHN TF with more SDP's, CLAC's and a heavy marine component, which given Mesa is only a ~100 LY in hyper from the SEM might happen faster than some expect, which will leave most local verge systems feeling they've been run over or knocked down by an air lorry or swept away by it's airflow/drag when they show up instead of the semi-expected RMN. ;)


See above. I think Mesa is farther than that from Lynx, more like 180-200 LY's IIRC. Can you confirm your number.

However, I do agree that RHN forces would be the logical reinforcement, mostly because I want Mike to meet Oliver Diamato...I suspect they will hit it off quite well, indeed (a little bit for roseandheather there... ;) )

We shall see...eventually.
***********************************************
No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow.

What? Look, somebody's got to have some damn perspective around here! Boom. Sooner or later. BOOM! -LT. Cmdr. Susan Ivanova, Babylon 5
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Re: Failure and the SLN...
Post by stewart   » Sat May 17, 2014 7:59 pm

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We've seen a taste of it with how Mike handled Meyers in SoF. I believe DW deliberately did that to show an example of how the Harrington Plan would be implemented. I believe we'll see something similar with Mesa, only with the Seccies forming the local government with Torch "advisors" helping out, and RMN/RMMC presence in orbit ready to put out any fires. (There really ought to be some advisors from Erewhon as well.)



Given the "neighborhood mutual benefit associations" I can see a BIG advantage in having Erehwon involved in a re-constituted Mesa.

-- Stewart
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Re: Failure and the SLN...
Post by lyonheart   » Sun May 18, 2014 12:30 am

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Hi Hutch,

I'm referring to the Visigoth wormhole junction to Mesa being only ~60 LY further from Beowulf, 100 from Sol; the bridge is some 568 LY, while Lynx is 212 LY from Mesa.

Meyers is actually further from Mesa than Lynx, 240 -363 LY depending on which map which can't be too accurate given the 3D nature of space; taking the lower figure could mean about 30 days in transit.

Regarding cupid, binding Haven and Manticore by marriage would certainly appeal to the respective public's, though its morganatic aspect doesn't approach treaty power.

Fortunately it isn't required.

L


Hutch wrote:
lyonheart wrote: Regarding Eighth Fleet reinforcements for Tenth Fleet, I doubt they'll be BCP's given their limited number of pods when 8th already has SDP's; rather a RHN TF with more SDP's, CLAC's and a heavy marine component, which given Mesa is only a ~100 LY in hyper from the SEM might happen faster than some expect, which will leave most local verge systems feeling they've been run over or knocked down by an air lorry or swept away by it's airflow/drag when they show up instead of the semi-expected RMN. ;)


See above. I think Mesa is farther than that from Lynx, more like 180-200 LY's IIRC. Can you confirm your number.

However, I do agree that RHN forces would be the logical reinforcement, mostly because I want Mike to meet Oliver Diamato...I suspect they will hit it off quite well, indeed (a little bit for roseandheather there... ;) )

We shall see...eventually.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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