House of Lies - the speculation and questions thread.

Garth 2 wrote:Also if we get the same level of information about their warships, it will help put some of the battles into perspective.

Probably not - the stats presented in House of Steel leave a lot of combat relevant information out, like reload times, how many missiles are in the magazines, sensor and fire control qualities, individual weapon strengths, etc..

The few captured Havenite classes listed in Steel indicates that - both classes of captured Havenite SDs had one less missile launcher per broadside than the Gryphon(equalling the Sphinx), despite massing half a million to 1.2 million tons less. This would suggest that whenever an equal tonnage of Havenite and Manticoran SDs meet, the Havenites should have the edge. Yet we've seen that edge foiled by Manticoran tactics and technology many times.

Tactics count for a lot - for example, it doesn't matter which side has a bigger broadside if its T is crossed or its missiles are outranged.

munroburton wrote:

Garth 2 wrote:Also if we get the same level of information about their warships, it will help put some of the battles into perspective.

Probably not - the stats presented in House of Steel leave a lot of combat relevant information out, like reload times, how many missiles are in the magazines, sensor and fire control qualities, individual weapon strengths, etc..

Yes, it doesn't even note in the stats which ships have SDMs, ERMs, DDM,and MDMs.

Now in most cases it's mentioned in the descriptions, or we know from the novels, but there are a few where it's unclear even what missiles they fire.

(And the Jaynes books have a bit more for the few ships they cover, but even they don't include tube cycle times)

Direwolf18 wrote:David said in one of the QA sessions that the MA had penetrated the CRAP out of the PRH, and that during the Committees revolution a LOT of alpha lines died. This is in one of the honorcon videos, I'm not sure which one tbh.

Good to know. I seem to recall a quote from SoS or maybe SftS where Albrect or Isabel mentioned about them finally getting some penetration under the Committee which they lost when Saint-Just was overthrown. I'm horribly maiming the exact text, but that was my impression. Which is then why I thought MA didn't have much penetration until after the Committee was formed, but still apparently had enough to get the RoH changed into the PRH. (gah, try saying all of that).

vernonlvincent wrote:Good to know. I seem to recall a quote from SoS or maybe SftS where Albrect or Isabel mentioned about them finally getting some penetration under the Committee which they lost when Saint-Just was overthrown. I'm horribly maiming the exact text, but that was my impression. Which is then why I thought MA didn't have much penetration until after the Committee was formed, but still apparently had enough to get the RoH changed into the PRH. (gah, try saying all of that).

It'll be interesting to find out how far back the MAlign began it's penetration of Haven. We know that things started to change sometime in the 1600's PD, but how long before that did the Alignment start it's subversion? From the founding of the original colony, or within the first two hundred years? When did the MAlign decide that Haven was a possible future threat? What attracted their attention? It can't just have been an aggressive implementation of the Cherwell Convention.

Mike.

Michael Riddell wrote:

vernonlvincent wrote:Good to know. I seem to recall a quote from SoS or maybe SftS where Albrect or Isabel mentioned about them finally getting some penetration under the Committee which they lost when Saint-Just was overthrown. I'm horribly maiming the exact text, but that was my impression. Which is then why I thought MA didn't have much penetration until after the Committee was formed, but still apparently had enough to get the RoH changed into the PRH. (gah, try saying all of that).

It'll be interesting to find out how far back the MAlign began it's penetration of Haven. We know that things started to change sometime in the 1600's PD, but how long before that did the Alignment start its subversion? From the founding of the original colony, or within the first two hundred years? When did the MAlign decide that Haven was a possible future threat? What attracted their attention? It can't just have been an aggressive implementation of the Cherwell Convention.

Mike.

Haven was founded in 1309 PD, while the Detweiller Consortium acquired Mesa in 1460 PD. I'd expect that they seeded the first groups on Haven as soon as they did anywhere else. They probably took several generations to gain enough power to found the Legislaturalists, which fits with the timeline.

As to why they regarded it as a threat: the MAlign's long term plan was to eliminate any centers that the planets of the collapsing Solarian League could coalesce around other than the RF. Haven fit that profile perfectly.

Actually, the Alignment [i]didn't consider Haven to be a threat. They considered it to be a tool. They were the ones who deliberately started Haven on the road that led inevitably to the Duquesne plan of interstellar conquest. It was all part of the Mesan Alignment plan.

The reason they wanted haven messed up, as it was a threat. THey had a great relationship with beowolf, and having a military force that hate slavery, would be a threat to their plans.
Unfortunatle, it turned haven and manticore in to super threats.

SYED wrote:The reason they wanted haven messed up, as it was a threat. THey had a great relationship with beowolf, and having a military force that hate slavery, would be a threat to their plans.
Unfortunatle, it turned haven and manticore in to super threats.

No, I don't think so. Haven was not a threat at all. Sure, they supported the Cherwell Convention, as did Manticore. But Haven was a single system, way out in the boondocks. Sure, they were the wealthiest system in hundreds of light-years, but they were not then a threat to Mesa. Haven was peaceful, happily generating a good economy, and not expansionist at all. They did not have a big navy. Haven was not a threat. It was Mesa who pushed Haven in the direction of unsupportable welfare and then expansionism, quite deliberately. They planned to use Haven to break the League.

SWM wrote:...But Haven was a single system, way out in the boondocks....

I'm pretty sure that the Republic of Haven was a multi-system republic when the MAlign prompted the rise of the Legislaturalists. There are several references to "Daughter Colonies" and "part of the original republic."

We have in text reference by Detweiller that the MA was responsible for the (um..) 'encouragement of liberal/socialist policies' via various agents.

This was because they didn't want the planets in the Haven sphere of interest being a problem when they moved out of the shadows, after all:

Before their interference the Haven system was a icon (a new Athens) to most of Humanity, was a keen supporter of Beowulf (and their code), (becoming) a densely populated area and was incredibly egalitarian (there's no way they would have excepted a genetic banding system).

Its also fairly clear that the various Mesan intelligence agencies have a better success rate of penetration when the planet is more 'caste' ordinated and therefore Haven would have become easier to penetrate under the Legislaturalists, and special under the Committee whilst the New Government which is aggressively dealing with corruption etc. would be harder (this is supported by the statement that though Manticore has been penetrated its actually on the small scale (though sufficiently for a member of government to actively work with them)).

Its highly probably that the MA has lost a lot of agents during the various civil wars (especial given there involvement in local politics and the military) but it probably hasn't crippled them (mostly because no one was looking for them), now that the Haven Government knows about them everyone of note is going to be put under a microscope (the same will be true for Manticore).

How successful this will be, is of course the question.

I do wonder from a 'Jaynes' perspective if we will get any more information on the Haven Q-ships (as seen in OBS) and on their navel rational for ship missions/design.