Should Honor really have been charged?

Flag In Exile

The paneling teams sealed the pane with an instantly-setting caulking compound and moved quickly to the west side of the dome. Despite the safety factor, they wanted to complete the first full cross section of roof quickly to balance the stress, and Gerrick approved. Engineers believed as firmly in their calculations as they did in God, but they also believed in minimizing exposure to the Demon Murphy.

Gerrick smiled at the familiar thought and looked down as the high, clear sound of a child's voice cut through the work site's noise. A group of kids—students-to-be in the middle school—had asked permission to watch the completion of the main dome, and their teachers, after checking with the site supervisors, had organized a field trip. Needless to say, the Sky Domes' staff had impressed them with the dangers the construction equipment represented, and Grayson children learned early to take adults' warnings to heart. They were well back under the completed eastern wall, and they were staying there, but that didn't mute their avid interest. He could see their excitement even from here as they watched the panels drifting upward on their counter-grav like some sort of impossibly beautiful seed pods and chattered to one another, and he smiled. He'd talked to some of those youngsters himself this morning, and two or three had looked like they had the making of good engineers.

He let his eyes sweep proudly back up the glittering wall above the kids . . . and that meant he saw it all happen.

It started almost gently, as the most terrible accidents so often do. The first movement was tiny, so slight he thought he'd imagined it, but he hadn't. One of the primary load-bearing supports—a solid shaft of alloy orders of magnitude stronger than titanium set in a hole bored fourteen meters into solid bedrock and sealed with over a hundred tons of ceramacrete—swayed like a young tree in a breeze. But that support was no sapling. It was a vital component of the dome's integrity, and even as Gerrick stared at it in disbelief it was turning, twisting in its socket as if it had been tamped into place with so much sand and not sealed into the densest, hardest mineral building material known to man. It couldn't happen. It wasn't just unlikely, it was impossible, and Gerrick knew it, for he was the man who'd designed it . . . but it was also happening.

His eyes whipped unerringly to the supports which shared that shaft's component of the dome's weight. An untrained eye wouldn't even have known which ones to look at; to Gerrick, it was as obvious as if he'd spent hours pouring over the schematics that very morning, and his heart leapt into his throat with horror as he saw one of them shifting as well!

He stared at it for one terrible, endless instant, his engineer's mind leaping ahead to the disaster to come. It was only a moment, no more than four seconds—possibly five; certainly not more than six—yet that moment of stunned inactivity would haunt Adam Gerrick. It didn't make any difference. He knew that—didn't think it, but knew it. Too much mass was in motion. The inevitable chain of events was beyond the control of any man, and nothing he did or didn't do could make the slightest difference, yet Gerrick would never forgive himself for that moment of stasis.

A soft, almost inaudible groan came from the moving supports, and a pane of crystoplast popped free. The glittering panel dropped, no longer drifting and lovely in its counter-grav supports but slashing downward like a gleaming guillotine, and Adam Gerrick began to run.

He flung himself down the scaffolding, screaming a warning, running straight towards the collapsing horror of his dream. It was madness—a race which could end only in his own death if he won it—but he didn't think about that. He thought only of the children, standing in what was supposed to be the safest part of the entire site . . . directly under those creaking, groaning, treacherously shifting supports.

Perhaps, he told himself later, if he'd reacted faster, if he'd started running sooner, if he'd screamed a louder warning, perhaps it would have made a difference. The engineer in him, the part of his brain and soul which manipulated numbers and load factors and vectors of force knew better, but Gerrick had two children of his own, and the father in him would never, ever, forgive himself for not having made it make a difference. He saw one of the kids turn and look at him. It was a girl, no more than eleven, and Adam Gerrick saw her smile, unaware of what was happening.

He saw her wave at him, happy and excited by all the activity . . . and then he saw eighty thousand metric tons of alloy and crystoplast and plunging horror come crashing down and blot that smile away forever.

My niece is giving a book report on OSHA Safety and guidelines on construction sites. I arranged for her to have a visit to one of my company's sites which is employing two large cranes to position some very heavy and very expensive equipment. She was very excited, especially since I ordered her her very own hardhat and goggles as part of her show and tell at school. She was very disappointed because she wanted to get much closer with her video, but our safety regs prevented that type of intimacy.

"I can't get any closer than the yellow tape Uncle?"
"I'm afraid not Princess. It's for your own safety."
"But we're so far away Uncle. What could possible happen if we get half closer?"
"Something very heavy could fall on your head."
"But I'm wearing my very own hardhat. It's brand new!"
"A hardhat isn't going to do you much good if that crane falls on your head."

Only then did I see the recognition in her eyes. The crane, though seemingly very far away would cover a great distance if it were to fall. We were barely thirty feet outside its reach.

OSHA has certain guidelines regarding these matters, but safety implementations are of course left up to individual companies and scenarios. Many injuries and deaths, even to the public, occur as a result.

A couple of hours ago I received an email. "Uncle, why were those Middle School students allowed within the yellow lines of the Mueller School Dome Construction site?"

Oh shit! All of you sure you'd like her to join the forums?

I don't think they should have been. Certainly my company would never have allowed it. Nor would her Uncle. I never would have forgiven myself if something untoward would have befallen my niece. Nor would any hardhat have saved my ass from the wrath of my sister. Perhaps Honor was responsible after all.

I later arranged for my niece to climb aboard a non-deployed crane and actually work a few levers. All teeth! Redemption for Uncle!

Some of the appropriate text has been included for reference. Unedited for punctuation (italics, which doesn't properly copy on android devices) . Also, some sample OSHA guidelines on cranes has been included. Interesting that construction safety so far into the future isn't any better. Should Honor have at least morally been charged?


What is in a Site Specific Safety Plan?
The preparation of a Site Specific Safety Plan starts with the project concept. A listing of hazards and concerns developed by the owner and the design team during the concept and design phase shall be compiled and addressed in the project documents.
Requirements for access to the facilities, protection of owner’s existing operations, if any, utilization of areas of the property, protection of adjacent property and public must be addressed in the contract documents.
Hazards and concerns of the owner and the design team shall be addressed as part of the contract documents. A specific solution to the hazards and concerns need not be presented, but the contract documents shall clearly require the PC/GC/CM to address each topic. Each contract document topic included in the documents shall include the contractor’s Safety Program topic and generate a Site Specific Safety Plan topic as a response.

Location and Access. Cranes positioned near or attached to a structure can have a major impact on the structure. The allowable loads and their points of application should be clearly defined and approved by a licensed engineer. A&Es must require an analysis of cranes/derricks attached to or supported by the structure. Having large cranes adjacent to a structure may also have a detrimental effect on the structure foundation.
The determination of allowable crane locations should reflect concerns for public exposure, adjacent structures, employee and public travel paths, underground structures, previously excavated areas, overhead obstructions and all other factors which impact on safe crane and rigging operations. In addition, load travel paths may have to be defined. Areas that present a severe hazard to personnel should be declared prohibited operating areas or as restricted employee and public access areas.

The Public. The A&E must consider the impact of crane operations on the public. Noise, dust, traffic, and other typical nuisances inherent with crane operations may require restricted working hours. These considerations or requirements should be specifically part of the contract documents. ANSI A10.34, Public Protection, as well as other applicable local, state and federal standards apply.
The ASCE and, in particular, the CI Committee on Crane Safety have devoted significant efforts to the safety of the public, recognizing that because of the configuration and use of cranes, they present significantly more hazard to the public around a construction site than do other construction operations. Numerous recent crane accidents have resulted in death and injury to the public. Planning crane operations to be safe and to minimally expose the public is crucial to providing for public safety around construction sites.

Existing Facilities. Construction within the confines of an existing facility requires that the A&E consider how existing structures and personnel impact crane operations. For example, consideration must be given to such areas as parking, employee and public access, utility lines, railroad tracks and other potential obstructions. Provisions may be required prior to the start of construction for the removal, relocation and/or protection of these areas. These considerations may require constraints on the size and number of cranes and the boom lengths of individual cranes.

Hazard Description

The Bureau of Labor Statistics' (BLS) Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries (CFOI) reports 79 fatal occupational injuries related to cranes, derricks, hoists, and hoisting accessories in 1993. (2) In 1992 OSHA reviewed the accident investigation files of 400 crane incidents in general industry and construction over a 5 year period and identified 354 fatalities, an average of 71 fatalities per year. (3) While we lack adequate worker exposure data to calculate the risk of death for the entire population exposed, the risk of death among crane operators alone is significant. BLS identified eight fatal injuries in 1993 among crane and tower operators, this corresponds to a risk of more than one death per thousand workers (1.4) over a working lifetime of 45 years. According to the 1987 Bureau of Labor Statistics' (BLS) supplementary data system (23 states reporting), over 1,000 construction injuries were reported to involve cranes and hoisting equipment. However, underreporting of crane-related injuries and fatalities, due to misclassification and a host of other factors, masks the true magnitude of the problem.

The 1989 catastrophic tower crane collapse in downtown San Francisco and the 1993 mobile crane accident near Las Vegas heightened public awareness to the continuing problem of crane accidents. Since crane activities normally occur in urban areas, unsafe equipment and operations present a risk not only to workers, but to the general public as well. Two citizens were killed in San Francisco and three were killed in Nevada.

OSHA's analysis also identified the major causes of crane accidents to include: boom or crane contact with energized power lines (nearly 45% of the cases), under the hook lifting device, overturned cranes, dropped loads, boom collapse, crushing by the counter weight, outrigger use, falls, and rigging failures. (3)

Some cranes are not maintained properly nor inspected regularly to ensure safe operation. Crane operators often do not have the necessary qualifications to operate each piece of equipment safely, and the operator qualifications required in the existing regulations may not provide adequate guidance to employers. The issues of crane inspection/certification and crane operator qualifications and certification need to be further examined.

Footnotes:
https://www.osha.gov/archive/oshinfo/pr ... crane.html
and from
Crane Safety Training for Engineers and Supervisors
Presented by the Construction Institute of ASCE
Funded by an OSHA Susan Harwood Training Grant

First, I have to say as a desclamer, I stopped reading at the point where you bolded the paragraph titles. I honestly tried, but I just couldn't make my self. Were they directly from some sort of government regulations?

As for your question. They weren't crushed by a crane. The kids were standing under a completed section of the dome, where they would have been perfectly safe if the dome had been constructed to spec. The fact of the matter is that where they were standing was probably safer than out in the open. From the descriptions of the work site, the counter grav cranes were picking up these HUGE panels, and flying them to where they were being installed. The odds of a crane's CG failing or a failure in the tractor or claw causing the panel to drop were much higher than a dome collapse. Assuming no sabotage, the only way for them to be safer would be for them to stay home.

Also, there is no way in hell that the Grayson OSHA requirement were written with counter grav or huge domes in mind. If the safety zone around a crane is defined as the height of the crane plus a safety margin, it would be largely useless for a crane that is 3 meters tall, but can fly.

cthia wrote:Flag In Exile

The paneling teams sealed the pane with an instantly-setting caulking compound and moved quickly to the west side of the dome. Despite the safety factor, they wanted to complete the first full cross section of roof quickly to balance the stress, and Gerrick approved. Engineers believed as firmly in their calculations as they did in God, but they also believed in minimizing exposure to the Demon Murphy.

Gerrick smiled at the familiar thought and looked down as the high, clear sound of a child's voice cut through the work site's noise. A group of kids—students-to-be in the middle school—had asked permission to watch the completion of the main dome, and their teachers, after checking with the site supervisors, had organized a field trip. Needless to say, the Sky Domes' staff had impressed them with the dangers the construction equipment represented, and Grayson children learned early to take adults' warnings to heart. They were well back under the completed eastern wall, and they were staying there, but that didn't mute their avid interest. He could see their excitement even from here as they watched the panels drifting upward on their counter-grav like some sort of impossibly beautiful seed pods and chattered to one another, and he smiled. He'd talked to some of those youngsters himself this morning, and two or three had looked like they had the making of good engineers.

He let his eyes sweep proudly back up the glittering wall above the kids . . . and that meant he saw it all happen.

It started almost gently, as the most terrible accidents so often do. The first movement was tiny, so slight he thought he'd imagined it, but he hadn't. One of the primary load-bearing supports—a solid shaft of alloy orders of magnitude stronger than titanium set in a hole bored fourteen meters into solid bedrock and sealed with over a hundred tons of ceramacrete—swayed like a young tree in a breeze. But that support was no sapling. It was a vital component of the dome's integrity, and even as Gerrick stared at it in disbelief it was turning, twisting in its socket as if it had been tamped into place with so much sand and not sealed into the densest, hardest mineral building material known to man. It couldn't happen. It wasn't just unlikely, it was impossible, and Gerrick knew it, for he was the man who'd designed it . . . but it was also happening.

His eyes whipped unerringly to the supports which shared that shaft's component of the dome's weight. An untrained eye wouldn't even have known which ones to look at; to Gerrick, it was as obvious as if he'd spent hours pouring over the schematics that very morning, and his heart leapt into his throat with horror as he saw one of them shifting as well!

He stared at it for one terrible, endless instant, his engineer's mind leaping ahead to the disaster to come. It was only a moment, no more than four seconds—possibly five; certainly not more than six—yet that moment of stunned inactivity would haunt Adam Gerrick. It didn't make any difference. He knew that—didn't think it, but knew it. Too much mass was in motion. The inevitable chain of events was beyond the control of any man, and nothing he did or didn't do could make the slightest difference, yet Gerrick would never forgive himself for that moment of stasis.

A soft, almost inaudible groan came from the moving supports, and a pane of crystoplast popped free. The glittering panel dropped, no longer drifting and lovely in its counter-grav supports but slashing downward like a gleaming guillotine, and Adam Gerrick began to run.

He flung himself down the scaffolding, screaming a warning, running straight towards the collapsing horror of his dream. It was madness—a race which could end only in his own death if he won it—but he didn't think about that. He thought only of the children, standing in what was supposed to be the safest part of the entire site . . . directly under those creaking, groaning, treacherously shifting supports.

Perhaps, he told himself later, if he'd reacted faster, if he'd started running sooner, if he'd screamed a louder warning, perhaps it would have made a difference. The engineer in him, the part of his brain and soul which manipulated numbers and load factors and vectors of force knew better, but Gerrick had two children of his own, and the father in him would never, ever, forgive himself for not having made it make a difference. He saw one of the kids turn and look at him. It was a girl, no more than eleven, and Adam Gerrick saw her smile, unaware of what was happening.

He saw her wave at him, happy and excited by all the activity . . . and then he saw eighty thousand metric tons of alloy and crystoplast and plunging horror come crashing down and blot that smile away forever.

My niece is giving a book report on OSHA Safety and guidelines on construction sites. I arranged for her to have a visit to one of my company's sites which is employing two large cranes to position some very heavy and very expensive equipment. She was very excited, especially since I ordered her her very own hardhat and goggles as part of her show and tell at school. She was very disappointed because she wanted to get much closer with her video, but our safety regs prevented that type of intimacy.

"I can't get any closer than the yellow tape Uncle?"
"I'm afraid not Princess. It's for your own safety."
"But we're so far away Uncle. What could possible happen if we get half closer?"
"Something very heavy could fall on your head."
"But I'm wearing my very own hardhat. It's brand new!"
"A hardhat isn't going to do you much good if that crane falls on your head."

Only then did I see the recognition in her eyes. The crane, though seemingly very far away would cover a great distance if it were to fall. We were barely thirty feet outside its reach.

OSHA has certain guidelines regarding these matters, but safety implementations are of course left up to individual companies and scenarios. Many injuries and deaths, even to the public, occur as a result.

A couple of hours ago I received an email. "Uncle, why were those Middle School students allowed within the yellow lines of the Mueller School Dome Construction site?"

Oh shit! All of you sure you'd like her to join the forums?

I don't think they should have been. Certainly my company would never have allowed it. Nor would her Uncle. I never would have forgiven myself if something untoward would have befallen my niece. Nor would any hardhat have saved my ass from the wrath of my sister. Perhaps Honor was responsible after all. I later arranged for her to climb aboard a non-deployed crane and actually work a few levers. All teeth! Redemption for Uncle!

Some of the appropriate text has been included for reference. Unedited for punctuation (italics, which doesn't properly copy on android devices) . Also, some sample OSHA guidelines on cranes has been included. Interesting that construction safety so far into the future isn't any better. Should Honor have at least morally been charged?


What is in a Site Specific Safety Plan?
The preparation of a Site Specific Safety Plan starts with the project concept. A listing of hazards and concerns developed by the owner and the design team during the concept and design phase shall be compiled and addressed in the project documents.
Requirements for access to the facilities, protection of owner’s existing operations, if any, utilization of areas of the property, protection of adjacent property and public must be addressed in the contract documents.
Hazards and concerns of the owner and the design team shall be addressed as part of the contract documents. A specific solution to the hazards and concerns need not be presented, but the contract documents shall clearly require the PC/GC/CM to address each topic. Each contract document topic included in the documents shall include the contractor’s Safety Program topic and generate a Site Specific Safety Plan topic as a response.

Location and Access. Cranes positioned near or attached to a structure can have a major impact on the structure. The allowable loads and their points of application should be clearly defined and approved by a licensed engineer. A&Es must require an analysis of cranes/derricks attached to or supported by the structure. Having large cranes adjacent to a structure may also have a detrimental effect on the structure foundation.
The determination of allowable crane locations should reflect concerns for public exposure, adjacent structures, employee and public travel paths, underground structures, previously excavated areas, overhead obstructions and all other factors which impact on safe crane and rigging operations. In addition, load travel paths may have to be defined. Areas that present a severe hazard to personnel should be declared prohibited operating areas or as restricted employee and public access areas.

The Public. The A&E must consider the impact of crane operations on the public. Noise, dust, traffic, and other typical nuisances inherent with crane operations may require restricted working hours. These considerations or requirements should be specifically part of the contract documents. ANSI A10.34, Public Protection, as well as other applicable local, state and federal standards apply.
The ASCE and, in particular, the CI Committee on Crane Safety have devoted significant efforts to the safety of the public, recognizing that because of the configuration and use of cranes, they present significantly more hazard to the public around a construction site than do other construction operations. Numerous recent crane accidents have resulted in death and injury to the public. Planning crane operations to be safe and to minimally expose the public is crucial to providing for public safety around construction sites.

Existing Facilities. Construction within the confines of an existing facility requires that the A&E consider how existing structures and personnel impact crane operations. For example, consideration must be given to such areas as parking, employee and public access, utility lines, railroad tracks and other potential obstructions. Provisions may be required prior to the start of construction for the removal, relocation and/or protection of these areas. These considerations may require constraints on the size and number of cranes and the boom lengths of individual cranes.

Hazard Description

The Bureau of Labor Statistics' (BLS) Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries (CFOI) reports 79 fatal occupational injuries related to cranes, derricks, hoists, and hoisting accessories in 1993. (2) In 1992 OSHA reviewed the accident investigation files of 400 crane incidents in general industry and construction over a 5 year period and identified 354 fatalities, an average of 71 fatalities per year. (3) While we lack adequate worker exposure data to calculate the risk of death for the entire population exposed, the risk of death among crane operators alone is significant. BLS identified eight fatal injuries in 1993 among crane and tower operators, this corresponds to a risk of more than one death per thousand workers (1.4) over a working lifetime of 45 years. According to the 1987 Bureau of Labor Statistics' (BLS) supplementary data system (23 states reporting), over 1,000 construction injuries were reported to involve cranes and hoisting equipment. However, underreporting of crane-related injuries and fatalities, due to misclassification and a host of other factors, masks the true magnitude of the problem.

The 1989 catastrophic tower crane collapse in downtown San Francisco and the 1993 mobile crane accident near Las Vegas heightened public awareness to the continuing problem of crane accidents. Since crane activities normally occur in urban areas, unsafe equipment and operations present a risk not only to workers, but to the general public as well. Two citizens were killed in San Francisco and three were killed in Nevada.

OSHA's analysis also identified the major causes of crane accidents to include: boom or crane contact with energized power lines (nearly 45% of the cases), under the hook lifting device, overturned cranes, dropped loads, boom collapse, crushing by the counter weight, outrigger use, falls, and rigging failures. (3)

Some cranes are not maintained properly nor inspected regularly to ensure safe operation. Crane operators often do not have the necessary qualifications to operate each piece of equipment safely, and the operator qualifications required in the existing regulations may not provide adequate guidance to employers. The issues of crane inspection/certification and crane operator qualifications and certification need to be further examined.

Footnotes:
https://www.osha.gov/archive/oshinfo/pr ... crane.html
and from
Crane Safety Training for Engineers and Supervisors
Presented by the Construction Institute of ASCE
Funded by an OSHA Susan Harwood Training Grant

crewdude48 wrote:Also, there is no way in hell that the Grayson OSHA requirement were written with counter grav or huge domes in mind. If the safety zone around a crane is defined as the height of the crane plus a safety margin, it would be largely useless for a crane that is 3 meters tall, but can fly.

The word "height" has two different meanings. One is synonymous with "tall", but the other carries the sense of "altitude". If we replace the word "height" with "altitude above ground level", it's still a pretty good requirement. Since we don't know how counter-grav failure modes work, it's quite possible that one such mode is that instead of pushing "up" at 1 G, the CG device starts pushing "sideways" at the same force. The trajectory thereof would perfectly match that safety circle.

(And this is coming from a Language Martinet.)

It's quite alright if you didn't read it all. It was included as a reference and a convenience.

Of course the children were not crushed by cranes. In a counter-grav culture? Cranes, and the enormous mass and dangers they represent, was only included as a modern day analogy. That construction site was much too dangerous for any field trip. The students should never have been allowed onsite. IMHO

crewdude48 wrote:First, I have to say as a desclamer, I stopped reading at the point where you bolded the paragraph titles. I honestly tried, but I just couldn't make my self. Were they directly from some sort of government regulations?

As for your question. They weren't crushed by a crane. The kids were standing under a completed section of the dome, where they would have been perfectly safe if the dome had been constructed to spec. The fact of the matter is that where they were standing was probably safer than out in the open. From the descriptions of the work site, the counter grav cranes were picking up these HUGE panels, and flying them to where they were being installed. The odds of a crane's CG failing or a failure in the tractor or claw causing the panel to drop were much higher than a dome collapse. Assuming no sabotage, the only way for them to be safer would be for them to stay home.

Also, there is no way in hell that the Grayson OSHA requirement were written with counter grav or huge domes in mind. If the safety zone around a crane is defined as the height of the crane plus a safety margin, it would be largely useless for a crane that is 3 meters tall, but can fly.

cthia wrote:Flag In Exile


Some of the appropriate text has been included for reference. Unedited for punctuation (italics, which doesn't properly copy on android devices) . Also, some sample OSHA guidelines on cranes has been included. Interesting that construction safety so far into the future isn't any better. Should Honor have at least morally been charged?



Footnotes:
https://www.osha.gov/archive/oshinfo/pr ... crane.html
and from
Crane Safety Training for Engineers and Supervisors
Presented by the Construction Institute of ASCE
Funded by an OSHA Susan Harwood Training Grant

cthia wrote:It's quite alright if you didn't read it all. It was included as a reference and a convenience.

Of course the children were not crushed by cranes. In a counter-grav culture? Cranes, and the enormous mass and dangers they represent, was only included as a modern day analogy. That construction site was much too dangerous for any field trip. The students should never have been allowed onsite. IMHO

crewdude48 wrote:First, I have to say as a desclamer, I stopped reading at the point where you bolded the paragraph titles. I honestly tried, but I just couldn't make my self. Were they directly from some sort of government regulations?

As for your question. They weren't crushed by a crane. The kids were standing under a completed section of the dome, where they would have been perfectly safe if the dome had been constructed to spec. The fact of the matter is that where they were standing was probably safer than out in the open. From the descriptions of the work site, the counter grav cranes were picking up these HUGE panels, and flying them to where they were being installed. The odds of a crane's CG failing or a failure in the tractor or claw causing the panel to drop were much higher than a dome collapse. Assuming no sabotage, the only way for them to be safer would be for them to stay home.

Also, there is no way in hell that the Grayson OSHA requirement were written with counter grav or huge domes in mind. If the safety zone around a crane is defined as the height of the crane plus a safety margin, it would be largely useless for a crane that is 3 meters tall, but can fly.

The kids at the school site were standing under a completely finished portion of a dome which, when finished, would have been the better part of a mile and a half in diameter. They were being carefully kept there by their guides, teachers, and chaperones. Had the materials in the site met code standard, and had the footings for the support pylons not been deliberately sabotaged, the area in which they were standing would have stood firm even in the face of a major earthquake. I apologize for not stating all of this in detail in the book, but I thought it was relatively clear from context (especially when Skydomes begins analyzing the video) and that readers would recognize that Graysons are not going to casually risk the lives of children . . . which was, in fact, part and parcel of the reason public's reaction to the collapse was so virulent. Their initial thought was that risks must have been taken for the kids to be exposed to the disaster when it occurred; only later did the fury over the substandard materials come fully to the fore.

There were no cranes, no panels, no operatinghieavy equipment, and no structural members being manipulated by cranes within a half mile of them and --- I reiterate exactly what Adam Gerrick told you in the book --- if the plans had been followed and the materials met code standard had been met that collapse could not have happened. Dunno how I can make it any clearer than that.

runsforcelery wrote:
The kids at the school site were standing under a completely finished portion of a dome which, when finished, would have been the better part of a mile and a half in diameter. They were being carefully kept there by their guides, teachers, and chaperones. Had the materials in the site met code standard, and had the footings for the support pylons not been deliberately sabotaged, the area in which they were standing would have stood firm even in the face of a major earthquake. I apologize for not stating all of this in detail in the book, but I thought it was relatively clear from context (especially when Skydomes begins analyzing the video) and that readers would recognize that Graysons are not going to casually risk the lives of children . . . which was, in fact, part and parcel of the reason public's reaction to the collapse was so virulent. Their initial thought was that risks must have been taken for the kids to be exposed to the disaster when it occurred; only later did the fury over the substandard materials come fully to the fore.

There were no cranes, no panels, no operatinghieavy equipment, and no structural members being manipulated by cranes within a half mile of them and --- I reiterate exactly what Adam Gerrick told you in the book --- if the plans had been followed and the materials met code standard had been met that collapse could not have happened. Dunno how I can make it any clearer than that.

See also: "The Problems With Applying Modern Standards to A Future Society", example #7685.

runsforcelery wrote:
The kids at the school site were standing under a completely finished portion of a dome which, when finished, would have been the better part of a mile and a half in diameter. They were being carefully kept there by their guides, teachers, and chaperones. Had the materials in the site met code standard, and had the footings for the support pylons not been deliberately sabotaged, the area in which they were standing would have stood firm even in the face of a major earthquake. I apologize for not stating all of this in detail in the book, but I thought it was relatively clear from context (especially when Skydomes begins analyzing the video) and that readers would recognize that Graysons are not going to casually risk the lives of children . . . which was, in fact, part and parcel of the reason public's reaction to the collapse was so virulent. Their initial thought was that risks must have been taken for the kids to be exposed to the disaster when it occurred; only later did the fury over the substandard materials come fully to the fore.

There were no cranes, no panels, no operatinghieavy equipment, and no structural members being manipulated by cranes within a half mile of them and --- I reiterate exactly what Adam Gerrick told you in the book --- if the plans had been followed and the materials met code standard had been met that collapse could not have happened. Dunno how I can make it any clearer than that.

Again, the example of cranes was just...an analogy. As close to modern day as I could get, to put the reader in the right frame of mind.

Of course I do not have the original plans of Grayson Sky Domes. But in general, completed sections of structures are not considered wholly safe under the guidelines of OSHA, as pertains to the original plans of the structure, if other sections are to be later attached and before said structures have been properly tested.

Until construction is completed a construction site is considered off limits to the public. Even unto workers who are not properly attired. There is always an element of danger on unfinished construction sites. I am sure we all agree there. The amount of risk seems to increase dramatically with the complexity of the site. That is usually the domain of The Risk Manager, which is growingly becoming a defunct title. Grayson Sky Domes represented not only a very complex operation, but one of also new design, new technologies, and new processes, bringing along with it new unforeseen problems.

I am willing to bet, that there are many in this forum who have worked at complex sites. There is always, ALWAYS unforeseen problems. Deadlines are adhered to by solving these problems in oftentimes unsafe fashions. On a large site you may often hear "You are not supposed to be using this access for that heavy piece of machinery!" But an OSHA representative is never always onsite, and the schedule has fallen weeks behind and overbudget. Safety often becomes a second concern. Complacency lives on every worksite. OSHA teaches that!

There are so many different entities in and out of the average site. Checks and balances are being performed and are at various stages of implementation and completion. I am Lab Manager for a huge Geotechnical company. I once examined a very important retaining wall for a school's new gym. There were serious hairline fractures. Those fractures were later determined to also be the cause of substandard materials used. Shady concrete company workers will add water, or even trash within the mixing process of concrete trucks to stretch the load delivered. Somewhere between concrete company and construction site the ordered concrete to water ratio was changed. This weakens the concrete. Thick concrete is difficult to work with, but is required in mission critical situations. Such as power plants, nuclear power plants. Bridges. Etc. Core samples are taken at strategic intervals to check the concrete. That's my job. A CBR, California Bearing Ratio machine is used to break the core sample, testing its strength. Different sections of huge structures are completed almost simulataneously. They are not tested simultaneously. It's a time consuming process. The core samples have to be soaked in a bath for several days before testing. Just because a wall is standing, does NOT imply safety.

Now I know that Grayson Sky Domes does not use concrete, but the same limitations apply. Weak substandard materials is a recipe for disaster. The site is unsafe until completed. Even then tests are being run on load-bearing structures.

Those kids should never have been allowed on such an inherently potentially dangerous site. Not even one kid, much less a group of them. If present day OSHA regs would have been followed, that would not have happened!

Edit:
One other thing I forgot that always happens at every site. MVP's will come and go during various stages of completion. Fifty percent of them never want to use hardhats, steel-toed boots, goggles, ear protection, etc. They don't understand, that even though they are visiting relatively safe sections of the site, access to the safe section almost always involves crossing into an unsafe section. They are not lowered by helicopter. Did the children at any point enter through an even more unsafe area...temporarily? I'd be very surprised if no. Unless they were aircared in. And were the kids wearing any of that protective gear? Hardhats, steel-toed boots, goggles...

There are a few things that seem to have been overlooked:

1) There is no project in reality that is to scale with the dome projects, not even remotely. The only person that can know how those projects are managed is the author and he has explained that due to the structural strengths involved and the scale of the project ("...no operating heavy equipment...within a half mile of them") it would make sense that completed sections are considered safe.

2) Any dome is going to have many entrance/exit points, the children and their minders would have used ones in the completed sections.

3) It is mentioned in the book that they used a partial depth sampling technique on the ceramacrete but would be switching to a full depth technique because of what happened.

4) At the point that the incident happens, the domes aren't very experimental, it is implicated that several had already been finished.

5) It's a story.

6) Going back to the title of this thread, the charges against Honor were politics/PR driven.

cthia wrote:Again, the example of cranes was just...an analogy. As close to modern day as I could get, to put the reader in the right frame of mind.

Of course I do not have the original plans of Grayson Sky Domes. But in general, completed sections of structures are not considered wholly safe under the guidelines of OSHA, as pertains to the original plans of the structure, if other sections are to be later attached and before said structures have been properly tested.

Until construction is completed a construction site is considered off limits to the public. Even unto workers who are not properly attired. There is always an element of danger on unfinished construction sites. I am sure we all agree there. The amount of risk seems to increase dramatically with the complexity of the site. That is usually the domain of The Risk Manager, which is growingly becoming a defunct title. Grayson Sky Domes represented not only a very complex operation, but one of also new design, new technologies, and new processes, bringing along with it new unforeseen problems.

I am willing to bet, that there are many in this forum who have worked at complex sites. There is always, ALWAYS unforeseen problems. Deadlines are adhered to by solving these problems in oftentimes unsafe fashions. On a large site you may often hear "You are not supposed to be using this access for that heavy piece of machinery!" But an OSHA representative is never always onsite, and the schedule has fallen weeks behind and overbudget. Safety often becomes a second concern. Complacency lives on every worksite. OSHA teaches that!

There are so many different entities in and out of the average site. Checks and balances are being performed and are at various stages of implementation and completion. I am Lab Manager for a huge Geotechnical company. I once examined a very important retaining wall for a school's new gym. There were serious hairline fractures. Those fractures were later determined to also be the cause of substandard materials used. Shady concrete company workers will add water, or even trash within the mixing process of concrete trucks to stretch the load delivered. Somewhere between concrete company and construction site the ordered concrete to water ratio was changed. This weakens the concrete. Thick concrete is difficult to work with, but is required in mission critical situations. Such as power plants, nuclear power plants. Bridges. Etc. Core samples are taken at strategic intervals to check the concrete. That's my job. A CBR, California Bearing Ratio machine is used to break the core sample, testing its strength. Different sections of huge structures are completed almost simulataneously. They are not tested simultaneously. It's a time consuming process. The core samples have to be soaked in a bath for several days before testing. Just because a wall is standing, does NOT imply safety.

Now I know that Grayson Sky Domes does not use concrete, but the same limitations apply. Weak substandard materials is a recipe for disaster. The site is unsafe until completed. Even then tests are being run on load-bearing structures.

Those kids should never have been allowed on such an inherently potentially dangerous site. Not even one kid, much less a group of them. If present day OSHA regs would have been followed, that would not have happened!

Edit:
One other thing I forgot that always happens at every site. MVP's will come and go during various stages of completion. Fifty percent of them never want to hardhats, steel-toed boots, goggles, ear protection, etc. They don't understand, that even though they are visiting relatively safe sections of the site, access to the safe section almost always involves crossing into an unsafe section. They are not lowered by helicopter. Did the children at any point enter through an even more unsafe area...temporarily? I'd be very surprised if no. Unless they were aircared in. And were the kids wearing any of that protective gear? Hardhats, steel-toed boots, goggles...

runsforcelery wrote:I reiterate exactly what Adam Gerrick told you in the book --- if the plans had been followed and the materials met code standard had been met that collapse could not have happened. Dunno how I can make it any clearer than that.

That is not an excuse to the laws and bylines of OSHA. Every disaster is explained away beginning with a big fat 'IF.' And people are dying, all over the country. Money is more important than lives it seems. It doesn't hit home, until it is your child. And YOU are not going to want to hear IF!!!

OSHA would have said hell no to that field trip. And someone would have been dusting off their resume for asking.

Donnachaidh wrote:There are a few things that seem to have been overlooked:

1) There is no project in reality that is to scale with the dome projects, not even remotely. The only person that can know how those projects are managed is the author and he has explained that due to the structural strengths involved and the scale of the project ("...no operating heavy equipment...within a half mile of them") it would make sense that completed sections are considered safe.

2) Any dome is going to have many entrance/exit points, the children and their minders would have used ones in the completed sections.

3) It is mentioned in the book that they used a partial depth sampling technique on the ceramacrete but would be switching to a full depth technique because of what happened.

4) At the point that the incident happens, the domes aren't very experimental, it is implicated that several had already been finished.

5) It's a story.

6) Going back to the title of this thread, the charges against Honor were politics/PR driven.

Exactly Donna. There is no project to this scale. Therefore there are way too many possible unknowns. I am willing to bet that there were more than a few serious injuries among the workers, maybe even deaths, if reality was a part of it. Guess how many people died building the Empire State Building?

The book says no heavy equipment? And proper exits and entrances were set aside?

Yes, a few Domes had been completed, but the process would still be considered new. Unforeseen problems would still be in the process of being solved possibly for years. Some may never be properly solved. From a safety standpoint!

Well, all of that sounds good, on paper. Which is always the last thing consulted, after the disaster, just like Adam Gerrick. Your plans are only as good as your Supervisors, Foremans, Construction Managers and workers.

If they wanted to, an OSHA representative can issue safety faults all day long at any given site! If they did, however, completion schedules would never be achieved.

Better than that, OSHA rarely just shows up. Just like Health inspectors at restaurants, they call ahead. Why do you think that is?!