Hyperspace Combat and the Solarian Leauge Navy

I think it's probably fair to assume that the energy weaponry of an SLN Scientist class SD was somewhat inferior to RMN SD's built during the first war with Haven. I think that the fact that both non-podlaying RMN and RHN SD's were built for the same type of combat as current SLN SD's but were larger and had the advantage of real world combat experience, along with their larger size tends to argue in that direction.

However I think the argument that SLN SD's have significantly inferior armament such as to place their energy weapon firepower into the realm of typical battlecruisers is swinging far too much in the other direction.

What is probable is that SLN SD's probably carry energy weapon armament similar to the larger Dreadnaughts of the RMN and PRN of that time which they also resemble in size.

What this would mean is that SLN SD's will be inferior to any of the non-pod laying SD's from the GA members which they might meet in battle.

That doesn't mean that they are going to be inferior to pod-laying SD's which make up the vast majority of all of the GA front line fleets at this time. This new generation of Waller's aren't built with the intention that they will ever come into energy beam range of another Waller. This means that most modern Wallers will carry a reduced energy weapon battery compared to their non-podlaying predecessors which will bring them closer to parity with current SLN designs or in some cases, actual inferiority.

What this will generally mean is that SLN vessels engaging GA vessels within their energy weapons envelope will be operating in the type of combat where they are the strongest and best suited while modern GA pod laying designs will be operating in a type of combat they are not primarily designed for and therefor at the point where they are at their weakest.

It's been mention that older non-pod laying GA SD's still exist and this is true. However these designs are not considered front line combat vessels and will probably not be seen operating in the main frontline fleets which would be the spearhead of any GA significant attack into Solarian space. These older SD's are simply designed for a different kind of combat and while they still have their uses, it will mostly be in secondary roles while awaiting replacement by more modern designs.

Certainly, however, if the SLN makes it a habit of figuring out how to successfully bringing GA vessels into close range combat then you may seem these older vessels once again make an appearance within the main battle fleets of the GA specifically to help counter that threat.




Non-pod laying designs which did survive the Battle of Manticore, the High Ridge Administration and being mothballed in favor of new construction are not likely to be overly numerous or assigned to frontline fleets

I've gone back an reread Honor Among Enemies where we have our best example of intentional hyperspace intercepts, in this case by a Peep force of BC's and CA's operating in the commerce raiding role.

In this instance Peep BC coasting along in hyper was able to avoid detection by the RMN DD Hawkwing and an Atlas class passenger liner with a fairly modern BC sensor suite and enter into close range of the convoy before revealing itself.

Also in this instance the Liner was able to later avoid detection by shutting down it's wedge while the Armed Merchant Cruiser RMN Wayfarer lured the BC away. Still, the BC would have passed pretty close to the liner in pursuit of the decoy and was unable to detect it.

This combat occurred in the Skelar Rift which has unusually low particle concentrations and therefor less sensor interference that in other areas of hyperspace.

This suggests certain interesting possibilities.

The first of these is that vessels using impeller wedges will be detected at ranges much greater than vessels not using their wedges. Hence a SLN fleet with wedges down should be able to detect the presence of GA force approaching them under impeller drive long before the GA forces can detect them.

SLN forces should be able to use reaction drives and their grav plates to make modest position changes and fleet realignments in the early stages of contact without a corresponding detection by GA forces.

If SLN forces operate in this manner, it's highly probable that they will be able to avoid detection by GA units until those units are at least deep into their SDM engagement range and it is also possible that detection will not occur until energy weapons range is entered or, if detection is made before then, that GA forces will be in a position where they can not change vectors quickly enough to avoid energy weapons combat.

While the Honor Among Enemies is not an exact correlation due the low relativistic speeds mandated by the Selkar Sheer in that instance, it does provide a useful template as to how an intercept like this could be effectively made. This is especially true under more normal hyperspace conditions where detection ranges outside of gravitics are even more restricted.

Alizon wrote:I've gone back an reread Honor Among Enemies where we have our best example of intentional hyperspace intercepts, in this case by a Peep force of BC's and CA's operating in the commerce raiding role.

In this instance Peep BC coasting along in hyper was able to avoid detection by the RMN DD Hawkwing and an Atlas class passenger liner with a fairly modern BC sensor suite and enter into close range of the convoy before revealing itself.

Also in this instance the Liner was able to later avoid detection by shutting down it's wedge while the Armed Merchant Cruiser RMN Wayfarer lured the BC away. Still, the BC would have passed pretty close to the liner in pursuit of the decoy and was unable to detect it.

This combat occurred in the Skelar Rift which has unusually low particle concentrations and therefor less sensor interference that in other areas of hyperspace.

This suggests certain interesting possibilities.

The first of these is that vessels using impeller wedges will be detected at ranges much greater than vessels not using their wedges. Hence a SLN fleet with wedges down should be able to detect the presence of GA force approaching them under impeller drive long before the GA forces can detect them.

I think you might be under estimating the impact of the low velocity imposed by saftey concerns about the Selker Rift's rogue wave.

There's a big difference between the about 0.3c ships transit that Rift and the 0.5 or 0.6c merchant or warships normally cruise at in hyper.

Lower speed makes drifting a scout line across the transit paths more practical because it gives the ambushing ships more time to pre-possition and (at increased risk) gives them a better chance of running down their targets once they do bring up their wedges.



But I certainly agree that even a 0.6c fast convoy a SL ship drifting with wedge down is unlikely to be detected; it's just also unlikely to be able to get into position to intercept. (Oh and you can only do this trick in Rifts, you don't want a sail down in a grav wave - but ships try to stick to 'waves as much as practical)

Phas Array Grasers are theoretically possible. It is up to RFC to decide if they exist in the Honorverse.

The SLN definitely has a vested interest in not pursuing radical new technologies that would make their 12,000 SDs and DNs obsolete. However; phased array graser technology that would merely increase the effective range of energy weapons while not profoundly altering the fundamental combat paradigm would not threaten SLN predominance.

Weird Harold wrote:

namelessfly wrote:If the SLN has been perhaps a bit more innovative than we would assume but has pursued a different, more traditional path, it is quite possible that they have Phased Array Graser Technology.

'Tis not an assumption, it is fact as stated by the creator of the Honorverse. The SLN is not only conservative about developing new technology, but actively suppress anything the think might be "destabilizing."

Secondly, where do you get the idea that "Phased Array Graser Technology" even exists in the Honorverse? I can't recall any hint anywhere that such technology is possible, let alone in development.

Alizon wrote: SLN forces should be able to use reaction drives and their grav plates to make modest position changes and fleet realignments in the early stages of contact without a corresponding detection by GA forces.

If you mean the SLN should try pulling a Cerberus (a la Honor), there's a bit of a problem. As others have pointed out in the past, whatever Honorverse ships use for their reaction thrusters is going to be obvious to a blind man. There's a reason that Honor positioned her ships where she did - she "came in out of the sun", which would mask some of that flare from her reaction thrusters, just in case someone happened to be checking the back door.

Honor and Mike even discuss this point with her students.

I don't think there's any convenient suns in hyper for the Sollies to attack out of, and even if there were, the other advantage Honor had was that she knew ahead of time where the attackers were going to cross the wall. Any SLN ships trying to hide in hyper waiting to attack a convoy are *not* going to have that kind of info. They may have a general idea, but unlike Honor, it won't be precise enough to allow the kind of positioning Honor pulled off.

If I'm a merchant skipper, and I have no reason to expect pirates or commerce raiders, I'll calculate a least-cost path to wherever I'm going. Since there are a lot of merchant ships with the same characteristics, that will create a predictable "lane."

If I suspect pirates or commerce raiders, absolutely the last thing I want to do is get within striking distance of that least cost path. In fact, I want to randomize my path as much as possible, not only to reduce the possibility that there will be a pirate or commerce raider somewhere along it, but also to reduce the payback from piracy or commerce raiding. One of Poul Anderson's Polysotechnic League stories about Nicholas vanRijn made this latter point about the economics of piracy, although in a somewhat different situation.

Some time ago, in another thread about commerce raiding, I made a joke about a pair of fuzzy dice hanging on a string above the astrogator's console. That joke had a point.

The first of these is that sensor ranges are greatly degraded in hyperspace. While this means it's more difficult for you as the SLN commander to detect the approaching GA units it also should significantly reduce the engagement ranges possibly significantly reducing or even eliminating the range advantage of Manty MDM's and bringing the GA fleet into your own engagement envelope, possibly even you energy weapon envelope.

AFAIK, there are no restrictions to using drones for scouting in hyper as long as they stay away from grav waves.
Meaning that the GA still have extreme advantages here, because both their sensors AND stealth abilities are superior, the SLN is going to be in an even worse position in some ways, as it´s sensors in hyper will degrade as much as GAs.

So, GA will very like spot SLN first by decent margins even without using recon drones, drones the SLN cannot match.


And within grav waves? Well, why would any GA fleet want to fight there?
Also, the GA uses larger but fewer energy weapons, meaning that they likely can cause more damage from further away.

Still, energy battle in a grav wave is pretty much insanity.
Also, GA advantages in ECM and stealth may be enough to tilt the scales even there.

Tenshinai wrote:

The first of these is that sensor ranges are greatly degraded in hyperspace. While this means it's more difficult for you as the SLN commander to detect the approaching GA units it also should significantly reduce the engagement ranges possibly significantly reducing or even eliminating the range advantage of Manty MDM's and bringing the GA fleet into your own engagement envelope, possibly even you energy weapon envelope.

AFAIK, there are no restrictions to using drones for scouting in hyper as long as they stay away from grav waves.
Meaning that the GA still have extreme advantages here, because both their sensors AND stealth abilities are superior, the SLN is going to be in an even worse position in some ways, as it´s sensors in hyper will degrade as much as GAs.

So, GA will very like spot SLN first by decent margins even without using recon drones, drones the SLN cannot match.


And within grav waves? Well, why would any GA fleet want to fight there?
Also, the GA uses larger but fewer energy weapons, meaning that they likely can cause more damage from further away.

Still, energy battle in a grav wave is pretty much insanity.
Also, GA advantages in ECM and stealth may be enough to tilt the scales even there.

No, of course the GA holds a number of advantages which they can use to good effect. But none of these creates the equivalent of being an SLN fleet caught in a gravity well in n-space by a GA fleet with MDM's.

Even with drones, n-space not only allows the drones to hide from SLN sensors, it allows the drones to count the rivets in the hull. Drones will suffer the same sensor penalties as any other kind of vessel reducing their chances of locating SLN vessels not using their wedge.

And I find some of the analysis here interesting, in what way exactly would an SLN fleet be in worse shape than to be caught in a gravity well by a fleet armed with MDMs?

Jonathan_S wrote:

I think you might be under estimating the impact of the low velocity imposed by saftey concerns about the Selker Rift's rogue wave.

There's a big difference between the about 0.3c ships transit that Rift and the 0.5 or 0.6c merchant or warships normally cruise at in hyper.

Lower speed makes drifting a scout line across the transit paths more practical because it gives the ambushing ships more time to pre-possition and (at increased risk) gives them a better chance of running down their targets once they do bring up their wedges.

But I certainly agree that even a 0.6c fast convoy a SL ship drifting with wedge down is unlikely to be detected; it's just also unlikely to be able to get into position to intercept. (Oh and you can only do this trick in Rifts, you don't want a sail down in a grav wave - but ships try to stick to 'waves as much as practical)[/quote]

I think you're correct. There could be some advantages to be traveling at a slow speed intercepting a fleet traveling at a higher speed, but in general you're correct that it would be difficult to do more than a hit and run engagement (well with the GA forces doing the running because they can't turn to really engage before their own speed sends them out of detection range).

But to obtain a good engagement, a SLN fleet would need to be traveling at a slower, yet still respectable velocity moving in generally the same direction as the fleet they are attempting to intercept.

As far as detection ranges for reaction drives are concerned, no, they are not going to be nearly as detectable as gravity drives at any range. Essentially, if you have a ship operating under impeller, pretty much anyone around knows exactly where you are even if they don't know precisely what you are. That isn't going to be the case with reaction drives either in n-space of in h-space.

Now undoubtedly there is a range at which ships using reaction drives will be detectable but it's going to be significantly less than the range needed to pick up a ship with it's wedge up. This gives an SLN fleet a period of time they can probably maneuver safely on reaction thrusters. In comparison to what they could do with impellers it's probably not much, but fine adjustments could probably be made even if it's only 160 gravities of accel. Like a WWII submarine which can't do better than 8knts underwater trying to track down a convoy twice it's size, those small adjustments can mean the difference between a intercept and a clean miss.

Essentially, what you are saying is that it's going to be hard and I completely grant you that. The biggest question I had was if it was possible for a SLN fleet to use hyperspace to hide well enough that if it were well placed that it could come into SDM or energy range without being detected and the answer to that appears to be yes, it can.

If I can then the mechanics of how exactly to do it becomes a puzzle to be solved which an inventive commander at least has a fighting chance to accomplish. This is in contrast to the that same commanders options when facing a GA force in n-space where there effectively are no options.

Tenshinai wrote:And within grav waves? Well, why would any GA fleet want to fight there?

"You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you."