Hyperspace Combat and the Solarian Leauge Navy

Grashtel wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Jumping up might work better; but we don't know if the 0.3 c limit on leaving n-space also applies to jumping up a hyper band -- if it does then again you're at a significant speed disadvantage.

I'm pretty sure that was an infodump that mentioned the 0.3c limit only applying to the initial transition into hyperspace and not transitions within hyperspace. OTOH the velocity bleed off still applies for upward transitions and is no better (and I think worse).

Ah I'd forgotten that; thanks. This inspired me to go dig up that infodump. It was actually in More Than Honor.

Initial entry into Hyper can't be more that 0.3c and is vastly safer at 0.23 c ("The loss rate at .3 c was over 10%")

"translation from one hyper band to a higher band (see below) may be made at any velocity up to and including .6 c"

It also confirms what I'd forgotten / overlooked which is that the speed bleed-off happens when going up bands as well.


But I think the bleed-off for entering a given band is the same whether you're going up or down; so since either can be done at 0.6c (for warships) from a velocity standpoint it doesn't seem to mater if you pounce from the higher or lower hyper band. OTOH you're still going to give up 72% of your velocity to attempt to jump into a convoy in the Delta bands.

n7axw wrote:This is just a guess. But I suspect that a Scientist class SD is probably the equivalent of an older Sphinx class. By the beginning of the first war with Haven, the Gryphons were the cutting edge for Manticore. We know that Technodyne was selling tech to Haven to keep Peeps within shouting distance of RMN. They never do catch Manties, so one wonders just how advanced pre-Buttercup Solly Tech actually was. Of course, they would have been selling Haven the export version had the transactions been completely above board. But they weren't completely legal given the embargo to which the Sollies assented to keep their junction fees from going through the roof. What that might mean is that those tech transfers would have included tech considerably better than normal League policy would have allowed, but still not on a par with Manticore's latest.

One comment about Stealth. Manty LACs are very capable. Against Solly sensors, Shrikes can probably get close enough to Solly BCs to hand the BCs their heads.

Don

The Scientist Class is closer to a King William class SD or Majestic DN than a Sphinx.

Mass for mass, it is a match for a Bellerphon, Without the Manticorian Technologies.

From MoH:

The Scientists were 6.8 million-ton units with thirty-two missile tubes, twenty-four lasers, and twenty-six grasers in each broadside. That was a heavier—or, at least, more numerous—energy broadside than any modern Manticoran or Grayson superdreadnought would have mounted. On the other hand, they had only sixteen counter-missile tubes and thirty-two point defense stations in each broadside, whereas Artemis, although technically only a battlecruiser, had thirty-two CM tubes and thirty much heavier and much more capable point defense clusters. Even the Saganami-Cs had twenty tubes and twenty-four clusters in each broadside, and given the fact that Michelle Henke had absolutely no intention of straying into energy range of her opponents, that imbalance was just likely to prove fatal for Admiral Sandra Crandall.

So it has a lot of lasers and grasers, but their size is closer to what the RMN mounted in it's Relaint BCs in 1900 than what it mounted in it's Capitol ships. In addition, the PDs in the Scientists are the eequivalent to those in Sag-Cs (or worse).

Bellerophon's specs

Bellerophon-class dreadnought
Mass: 6,985,250 tons
Dimensions: 1293 × 187 × 175 m
Acceleration: 420.1 G (4.12 kps²)
80% Accel: 336.1 G (3.296 kps²)
Broadside: 33M, 15L, 18G, 24CM, 24PD
Chase: 7M, 2L, 3G, 8CM, 8PD
Number Built: 38
Service Life: 1900–1921.

Remember, the Bellerophon is considered 2/3rds of a Gryphon (and the last of the Sphinx class were almost identical to the Gryphons). Throw in the formed in place armor, larger lasers, grasers, and PDs and Manticore's advanced sensors and ECM, and a ~1900 Bellerophon is the hands down winner in a 1 on 1 with a Scientist.

The surviving Victories, Sphinx and Gryphons will have a hay-day tangling with Sollie Scientists.

Except all of the RMN and GSN are in mothballs or may be destroyed in the yards during the OB attack.

You also construe Adm Henke's assessment of the Scientists' anemic PDLCs with their primary Graser weapons.

Even if the RMN and GSN SDs are superior to SLN SDs in energy range combat, that will be irrelevant if 10,000 reserve SDs succeed in hunting down fewer than 1,000 GA SD(P)s in murky hyperspace where extended MDM range is negated.

Theemile wrote:

n7axw wrote:This is just a guess. But I suspect that a Scientist class SD is probably the equivalent of an older Sphinx class. By the beginning of the first war with Haven, the Gryphons were the cutting edge for Manticore. We know that Technodyne was selling tech to Haven to keep Peeps within shouting distance of RMN. They never do catch Manties, so one wonders just how advanced pre-Buttercup Solly Tech actually was. Of course, they would have been selling Haven the export version had the transactions been completely above board. But they weren't completely legal given the embargo to which the Sollies assented to keep their junction fees from going through the roof. What that might mean is that those tech transfers would have included tech considerably better than normal League policy would have allowed, but still not on a par with Manticore's latest.

One comment about Stealth. Manty LACs are very capable. Against Solly sensors, Shrikes can probably get close enough to Solly BCs to hand the BCs their heads.

Don

The Scientist Class is closer to a King William class SD or Majestic DN than a Sphinx.

Mass for mass, it is a match for a Bellerphon, Without the Manticorian Technologies.

From MoH:

The Scientists were 6.8 million-ton units with thirty-two missile tubes, twenty-four lasers, and twenty-six grasers in each broadside. That was a heavier—or, at least, more numerous—energy broadside than any modern Manticoran or Grayson superdreadnought would have mounted. On the other hand, they had only sixteen counter-missile tubes and thirty-two point defense stations in each broadside, whereas Artemis, although technically only a battlecruiser, had thirty-two CM tubes and thirty much heavier and much more capable point defense clusters. Even the Saganami-Cs had twenty tubes and twenty-four clusters in each broadside, and given the fact that Michelle Henke had absolutely no intention of straying into energy range of her opponents, that imbalance was just likely to prove fatal for Admiral Sandra Crandall.

So it has a lot of lasers and grasers, but their size is closer to what the RMN mounted in it's Relaint BCs in 1900 than what it mounted in it's Capitol ships. In addition, the PDs in the Scientists are the eequivalent to those in Sag-Cs (or worse).

Bellerophon's specs

Bellerophon-class dreadnought
Mass: 6,985,250 tons
Dimensions: 1293 × 187 × 175 m
Acceleration: 420.1 G (4.12 kps²)
80% Accel: 336.1 G (3.296 kps²)
Broadside: 33M, 15L, 18G, 24CM, 24PD
Chase: 7M, 2L, 3G, 8CM, 8PD
Number Built: 38
Service Life: 1900–1921.

Remember, the Bellerophon is considered 2/3rds of a Gryphon (and the last of the Sphinx class were almost identical to the Gryphons). Throw in the formed in place armor, larger lasers, grasers, and PDs and Manticore's advanced sensors and ECM, and a ~1900 Bellerophon is the hands down winner in a 1 on 1 with a Scientist.

The surviving Victories, Sphinx and Gryphons will have a hay-day tangling with Sollie Scientists.

Not all RMN or GSN SDs were in mothballs as of OB, many were still deployed at various defensive stations while the SD(p)s worked up. No where in text (and no where I've sen on the board) has David said all the ships are in Mothballs - just that some were being placed back in mothballs to crew the new construction.

Remember all of the RHN SD(P)s captured at 1st Manticore were intact to give back to the RHN AFTER OB - So obviously there is a secure, mothball location that survived OB. So, it stands to reason that any mothballed manty SDs at the same location whould have survived as well. (as well as it stands to reason that any of said ships undergoing maintenance or moored to a station undergoing mothballing were destroyed.)

As for the weapons sizes, no, I did not.

That was a heavier—or, at least, more numerous—energy broadside than any modern Manticoran or Grayson superdreadnought would have mounted.

Note- it distictly says more numerous armament, and alludes that the actual power of the broadside was not as large as a modern RMN waller. That correction, distinguishing the numerical advantage and not a heavier overall broadside is important. The only way to shoehorn in 50% more armament in the same sized hull is to use smaller individual armaments - which stands to reason, that a 200 year old design isn't using today's cutting edge in energy weapondry, while a 10 year old design can be designed with those weapons in it's base design.

With myoptic sensors, the numeric advantage would allow more hits, but with modern Manty/Grayson sensors, fewer, heavier weapons do far more damage.

namelessfly wrote:Except all of the RMN and GSN are in mothballs or may be destroyed in the yards during the OB attack.

You also construe Adm Henke's assessment of the Scientists' anemic PDLCs with their primary Graser weapons.

Even if the RMN and GSN SDs are superior to SLN SDs in energy range combat, that will be irrelevant if 10,000 reserve SDs succeed in hunting down fewer than 1,000 GA SD(P)s in murky hyperspace where extended MDM range is negated.

Theemile wrote:Note- it distictly says more numerous armament, and alludes that the actual power of the broadside was not as large as a modern RMN waller. That correction, distinguishing the numerical advantage and not a heavier overall broadside is important. The only way to shoehorn in 50% more armament in the same sized hull is to use smaller individual armaments - which stands to reason, that a 200 year old design isn't using today's cutting edge in energy weapondry, while a 10 year old design can be designed with those weapons in it's base design.

No, it's a tradeoff of energy weapon space for something else. It could be armor, fuel tanks, missile tubes, magazine capacity (CM or main battery), etc. But yes, there is something they traded to do this, I'm just not at all convinced that it is weapon size that they choose.

Any one of my various attorneys would beat you like a drum for your linguistic analysis here.

It states a heavier, or at least more numerous, broadside of energy weapons. This implies uncertainty about the power of the individual weapons, not the opinion that they are smaller.

The fact that the SLN SDs do not have nearly the same PDLCs and CMs frees up a lot of mass, hull volume and hull surface area for bigger energy weapons.

Also important is the probability that SLN SDs do not have nearly as much hull volume and mass devoted to missile and counter missile magazines as an RMN tube SD.

If the SLN has been perhaps a bit more innovative than we would assume but has pursued a different, more traditional path, it is quite possible that they have Phased Array Graser Technology.

Theemile wrote:Not all RMN or GSN SDs were in mothballs as of OB, many were still deployed at various defensive stations while the SD(p)s worked up. No where in text (and no where I've sen on the board) has David said all the ships are in Mothballs - just that some were being placed back in mothballs to crew the new construction.

Remember all of the RHN SD(P)s captured at 1st Manticore were intact to give back to the RHN AFTER OB - So obviously there is a secure, mothball location that survived OB. So, it stands to reason that any mothballed manty SDs at the same location whould have survived as well. (as well as it stands to reason that any of said ships undergoing maintenance or moored to a station undergoing mothballing were destroyed.)

As for the weapons sizes, no, I did not.

That was a heavier—or, at least, more numerous—energy broadside than any modern Manticoran or Grayson superdreadnought would have mounted.

Note- it distictly says more numerous armament, and alludes that the actual power of the broadside was not as large as a modern RMN waller. That correction, distinguishing the numerical advantage and not a heavier overall broadside is important. The only way to shoehorn in 50% more armament in the same sized hull is to use smaller individual armaments - which stands to reason, that a 200 year old design isn't using today's cutting edge in energy weapondry, while a 10 year old design can be designed with those weapons in it's base design.

With myoptic sensors, the numeric advantage would allow more hits, but with modern Manty/Grayson sensors, fewer, heavier weapons do far more damage.

namelessfly wrote:Except all of the RMN and GSN are in mothballs or may be destroyed in the yards during the OB attack.

You also construe Adm Henke's assessment of the Scientists' anemic PDLCs with their primary Graser weapons.

Even if the RMN and GSN SDs are superior to SLN SDs in energy range combat, that will be irrelevant if 10,000 reserve SDs succeed in hunting down fewer than 1,000 GA SD(P)s in murky hyperspace where extended MDM range is negated.

The E wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:The more this is discussed, the less impressed with SLN tech levels. I think it is possible, even probable, that the PRN as of OBS was better than the SLN of 1920 PD; both tactically and technologically.

That's highly likely. The PRN, at the time of OBS, had a solid core of combat-experienced officers that had fought everything from single-ship engagements to fleet actions; while the war against Manticore was going to be on a very different scale than previous operations, noone on the PRN side was actually worried all that much about the PRN's ability to handle it.

And yeah, I can certainly see Technodyne or other companies selling their prototypes to the PRN that they weren't able to sell to the SLN; as a result, the tech that the PRN got may have been quite a bit better than what was available to the SLN at the time. This would also make sense if we assume that those tech transfers were instigated (or at least encouraged) by the Alignment, given the original plan of having Haven take out Manticore in preparation for the collapse of the League, giving Haven an edge over the SEM and the League would be a good idea.

We know from textev that the Catapharats were Alignment. I agree that the SLN wasn't getting the cream, perhaps because they refused to buy it, thus denying themselves the advanced prototypes.

But the question this raises is whether or not the tech being passed on was MAlign or Technodyne... or whether or not there is any meaningful difference between the two.

Don

n7axw wrote:But the question this raises is whether or not the tech being passed on was MAlign or Technodyne... or whether or not there is any meaningful difference between the two.

Technodyne doesn't know about the Cataphracts -- or at least didn't as of the Battle of Monica.

I'd say that TIY tech is only a subset of MAlign tech -- even in the purely weapons-tech arena. The Malign has everything TIY does, but TIY does NOT have everything the MAlign has.

Weird Harold wrote:Technodyne doesn't know about the Cataphracts -- or at least didn't as of the Battle of Monica.

No, what is shown, at most, is that some employees didn't know about it.

namelessfly wrote:If the SLN has been perhaps a bit more innovative than we would assume but has pursued a different, more traditional path, it is quite possible that they have Phased Array Graser Technology.

'Tis not an assumption, it is fact as stated by the creator of the Honorverse. The SLN is not only conservative about developing new technology, but actively suppress anything the think might be "destabilizing."

Secondly, where do you get the idea that "Phased Array Graser Technology" even exists in the Honorverse? I can't recall any hint anywhere that such technology is possible, let alone in development.