Hyperspace Combat and the Solarian Leauge Navy

SWM wrote: But detection range in hyperspace is still a lot longer than graser range. The only way you can get into range even in hyperspace is if you can close to range, or are lucky enough to start close to range when one side or the other transits.

Possibly.

Based on reading of the information in Honor Among Enemies it would appear that actual sensor range in hyperspace dependent upon particle density. That density in the Selklar's Rift region was abnormally low and as such sensor detection ranges were abnormally long. This would tend to indicate that the reverse is also true.

What we do know is that in an area of very light particle density that detection ranges for vessels under power are longer than the engagement envelope for SDM missiles, but what is detection range under more normal conditions or particularly bad ones. How much can that detection range be reduced by operating with a minimal impeller wedge or with the wedge set on standby and/or with ECM and stealth systems online?

At this point we really don't have any information which says definitively one way or the other, but the fact that vessels rarely fight in hyperspace gives us some clues.

For instance if detection ranges are fairly long, then one would think that people would have a vested interest in attempting hyper intercepts more often in any number of situations, which they don't. This tends to suggest that, under normal circumstances, hyper detection ranges are relatively short and under bad situations, even shorter. So if this is the case, then can SLN units use this to shorten the likely engagement ranges enough to bring GA units into their engagement range.

SWM wrote:You are pulling that out of thin air. There is absolutely no evidence in the text that there are features in hyperspace, ...

That would depend on what you call "features." I happen to think things like grav waves are "features."

SWM wrote:You are pulling that out of thin air. There is absolutely no evidence in the text that there are features in hyperspace, and the fact that hyper-logs are necessary (and so error-prone) is indirect evidence that there are no useful features. With that evidence, I think that the onus is on you to provide a reason for us to agree with you.

As much as I hate to agree with WH, he has a point here. There are grav waves in hyper, and a point where two grav waves intercept is, by definition, a feature. It was also stated that grav waves move in more or less predictable patterns, so if you spotted an intersection, you could use it to double check your hyperlog readings. You could also see the edges of a grav wave, disturbances with in the wave, and possibly (but I'm not sure on this) a resonance zone between a warp point and its associated star. All of these are features, and you can say "pick me up at the junction of waves A and B."

crewdude48 wrote:As much as I hate to agree with WH, he has a point here. There are grav waves in hyper, and a point where two grav waves intercept is, by definition, a feature. It was also stated that grav waves move in more or less predictable patterns, so if you spotted an intersection, you could use it to double check your hyperlog readings. You could also see the edges of a grav wave, disturbances with in the wave, and possibly (but I'm not sure on this) a resonance zone between a warp point and its associated star. All of these are features, and you can say "pick me up at the junction of waves A and B."

No, they move. So yeah, it's generally in this area, so it's normally plus or minus two light years. With a 20 LM detection range you'll take a long time to find each other, so pack a lunch.

"Hyper-space grav waves take the form of wide, deep volumes of space, as much as fifty light-years across and averaging half their width in depth, of focused gravitational stress "moving" through hyper-space. Actually, the wave itself might be thought of as stationary, but energy and charged particles trapped in its influence are driven along it at light- or near-light-speed. In that sense, the grav wave serves as a carrier for other energies and remains motionless but for a (relatively) slow side-slipping or drifting. In large part, it is this grav wave drift which makes them so dangerous; survey ships with modern sensors can plot them quite accurately, but they may not be in the same place when the next ship happens along. The major waves in the more heavily traveled portions of the galaxy have been charted with reasonable accuracy, for sufficient observational data has been amassed to predict their usual drift patterns. In addition, most waves are considered "locked," meaning that their rate of shift is low and that they maintain effectively fixed relationships with other "locked" waves. But there are also waves which are not locked—whose patterns (if, in fact, they have patterns at all) are not only not understood but can change with blinding speed. One of the most famous of these is the Selkir Shear between the Andermani Empire and the Silesian Confederacy, but there are many others, and those in less well-traveled (and thus less well-surveyed) areas, especially, can be extremely treacherous. "

SWM wrote:I would like to point out that David has discussed the possibility that merchant convoys could tractor a few LACs to their hulls to provide protection. He did not state specifically that he was going to write that in, but it sounded like he probably would.

Certainly, LAC's can operate in hyperspace provided they aren't required to change hyperbands. If SLN raiding forces are able to operate effectively in hyperspace then having vessels take this precaution certainly is a potential partial counter.

But when we're talking about SLN raiding forces avoiding n-space intercepts because of the threat of LAC attacks operating in the system security role, we're probably talking about a LOT of LAC's that the SLN is trying to avoid. Strapping a couple of LAC's to a freighter doesn't represent that kind of threat. You'd probably need a substantial number to create the same level of threat.

And even if you do this, you're going to have to bring them all back when it's time to may your hyper translation down through the bands and if the SLN raiding party happens to be sitting in one of those lower bands, things could get more interesting.

Either way the SLN is accomplishing something by all of this. The SDF LAC's operating in n-space are being rendered partially ineffective in the commerce protection role forcing the GA to divert additional resources to confront the problem. This means diverting resources from other tasks, whether hyper capable warships of more LAC's, they can't be used elsewhere which is one of the things that you as the SLN commander want to do.

DO we know much about their energy weapons? We know they still use projectiles in their point defence. Manticore heavily uses grasers over lasers, but the solly might just have lasers. Also, dont forget, the manites have epic ECM systems to help hide and protect themselves.

No, some fraction of the ships in the reserves have grav guns. There is no evidence that any SLN vessel in service uses anything other then PDLCs.

kzt wrote:No, some fraction of the ships in the reserves have grav guns. There is no evidence that any SLN vessel in service uses anything other then PDLCs.

One wonders how difficult it might be to swap out a grave gun for a PDLC. It might not be that difficult, in which case the reserve SDs and DNs might be very viable.

More important to me are the characteristics of SLN Grasers. The fact that the NEVADA class has an all Graser broadside and presumably all Graser chase armament is very interesting to me. It makes perfect sense given the SLNs continued devotion to the energy weapon dominated, combat paradigm. This makes it VERY plausible that while the SLN rejected the laser head missile until recently, they might have made significant improvements in Graser technology. Those of us who can do the math are bemused by Weber's lack of understanding of some aspects of physics. The fact that very small aperture lasers mounted on a Pinace were portrayed as being effective at rather long range had me ROFLMAO. Conversely, Weber portrays Grasers as having very limited effective range given his stated aperture diameters and power levels. The handwavium about the difficulty of focusing a "hot emitter" is not absurd. It is very conceivable that a combination of advanced gravity lens technology (very plausible for the
SLN) and Phased Array Graser technology could produce energy weapons with effective ranges of AUs against unpowered targets and perhaps millions of kilometers against powered targets that are not maneuvering erratically. This suggests that the SLN infrastructure raiding strategy might be quite effective and combat in hyperspace and gravity waves might go well for them.

It would make the books more enjoyable.

SYED wrote:DO we know much about their energy weapons? We know they still use projectiles in their point defence. Manticore heavily uses grasers over lasers, but the solly might just have lasers. Also, dont forget, the manites have epic ECM systems to help hide and protect themselves.

Actually, I believe we do. It's noted that some of the most ancient SD's in the reserve fleet which comprises several thousand SD's some of which haven't been in commission in centuries do use autocannon point defense systems, but these haven't been used in hundreds of years by SLN regular forces.

You can also get a pretty decent overview of the SLN Vega class SD's from the battle of Talbot which should be representative of current SLN SD design and I believe that section gives some information on energy beam armament which includes Grasers.

I think it's important to remember that SLN forces are not obsolescent hunks of steel anywhere else in the galaxy other than in the Haven Sector. The technology used by active SLN units is probably at least equivalent or most likely somewhat better than that used by Manticore and the Peeps during much of their first conflict (which started in "A Short Victorious War"). It's really only when facing fleets at long range armed with MDM's and superior missile fire control that the SLN becomes hopelessly outclassed.

As such, SLN SD's are designed to use missiles during the early phases of an engagement to soften up and hopefully disable the sidewalls of enemy Wallers, maybe even damage a few. The primary weapon of decision during this time was the Grasers of the Wall of Battle. SLN ships are still constructed for that form of combat and their officers and crews are trained for it.

On the other hand GA vessels are designed for a new form of combat where the long range MDM with powerful laser heads are the weapons of decision. Fleets rare come within energy beam of each other (read never)and in which grasers more commonly used to fend of LAC attacks than other Ships of the Wall.

In creating these new missile optimized vessels, there have undoubtedly been some design compromises to optimize the vessels for missile combat which probably have impacted the number and type of energy weapons mounted. It's also likely that the optimal arrangement of armored protection to guard against hundreds of laserheads attacking from all angles is also subtly different from the optimal arrangement for defending against capital ship Grasers at short range so while such vessels still need to be incredibly tough, it's quite possible that there could be some weaknesses in their protective scheme when confronted with a different type of attack than they were optimized to repel.

That isn't to say that an Invictus class SD isn't a fearsome opponent at any range, but it is also fair to say that her energy weapon capabilies and training in close range combat, even her protective scheme for close range energy combant are the weakest points of her design and the combat evolution her crews and officers are least familiar with. On the other hand, SLN ships and crews are designed and trained for exactly this form of combat which means that it is in this kind of engagement that SLN forces most closely approach or possibly exceed Manticorian capabilities.

Republican vessels are probably have even more pronounced problems with this threat environment. In order to attempt to remain effective against RMN vessels, modern Republican designs have been ruthlessly optimized to create vessels fully optimize for pod laying long range combat. Chances are most of their energy weaponry is optimized for engaging the only combatants which would reasonably approach within energy weapons range, Manticorian LAC's. Grasers and Lasers optimized for this role will probably be more numerous and smaller with faster tracking and engagement capabilities than those designed to punch through the sidewalls and armor of Wallers. This is great for LAC's not so good if you actually have to face off against a SLN Waller at close range. Now, Republican designs may still retain some massive ship killers just in case, but it also wouldn't surprise me if their SD designs were almost entirely equipped with these smaller more flexible mounts. This could pose a serious problem for any Republican SD forced into this sort of close range combat.

Andermani vessels probably haven't been optimized to the same extent simply because they haven't needed to be. Yes, they've been involved in the Haven wars but not as extensively or for as long. Chances are there are enough old salts who grew up with Grasers and Lasers to maintain a more balanced approach to their designs.

Of course, non-podlaying vessels in the reserves of the GA are are, like SLN SD's, designed for this form of combat so such vessels, if any are deployed in front line fleet formations (which they probably won't be, at least initially) will be better equipped to deal with this form of combat and will almost certainly be superior, ship for ship, than anything the SLN can throw at them.

Alizon wrote:I think it's important to remember that SLN forces are not obsolescent hunks of steel anywhere else in the galaxy other than in the Haven Sector. The technology used by active SLN units is probably at least equivalent or most likely somewhat better than that used by Manticore and the Peeps during much of their first conflict (which started in "A Short Victorious War"). It's really only when facing fleets at long range armed with MDM's and superior missile fire control that the SLN becomes hopelessly outclassed.

With very few exceptions, what the SLN has deployed is noticeably inferior to pre-first Havenite War RMN tech. And while it's more 'advanced' the pre-first Havenite War People's Navy tech in many ways, the PN's ships are much, much better designed for laser-head era combat; a squadron of Dusquesnes would beat one of Vegas more often than not even if Elvis Santino commanded the Dusquesnes and Honor Harrington the Vegas.

Also, pretty much all the non-SLN/league-member SDF navies with wallers are in the Haven sector, so there's not really anything to compare to there.