Hyperspace Combat and the Solarian Leauge Navy

Jonathan_S wrote:A lot easier to find the LACs again in n-space than after you've move to another hyper band.

For one thing sensor conditions are a heck of a lot better in n-space.

Sensor reach doesn't mean a great deal unless you're trying to hide. For LAC recovery, I would expect transponders and beacons to be in use -- since presumably the combat situation has been resolved or otherwise moved out of communications range.

Jonathan_S wrote:(Also don't know how well LAC nav systems can act as a hyper-log; ...

I think you misunderstand the purpose of a hyperlog; a hyperlog tracks your probable N-space position when you drop out of hyper. Since a LAC is never going to drop out of hyper on its own, it doesn't need a hyperlog. All a LAC needs is references to features visible in the particular hyper band it's operating in.

Weird Harold wrote:Sensor reach doesn't mean a great deal unless you're trying to hide. For LAC recovery, I would expect transponders and beacons to be in use -- since presumably the combat situation has been resolved or otherwise moved out of communications range.

Max detection range of the most powerful signal possible is 20 light minutes in hyper. If combat is on Epsilon and the CLAC moved to Alpha how much movement does the LAC need to make to be 20 light minutes away when it come back? I see 25 light seconds of movement, which is not a lot for Honorverse combat at 700g acceleration.

I think you misunderstand the purpose of a hyperlog; a hyperlog tracks your probable N-space position when you drop out of hyper. Since a LAC is never going to drop out of hyper on its own, it doesn't need a hyperlog. All a LAC needs is references to features visible in the particular hyper band it's operating in.

There are no features in hyper. That's the reason you need the hyperlog. If there were features people would use these rather then trust the hyperlog.

Travel in Hyper is like flying a jet with only on inertial navigational, with no other electronics. And you get to see the ground only until 10 seconds after takeoff and not again until when you reach what you calculate as 50 feet AGL on final approach. Hope you aren't off by a couple hundred feet....

Though, come to think of it, the LACS in HAE did manage to travel a rather long distance in hyper and did find the very quiet ships at both ends, so this might not be as much of a problem as we are making.

kzt wrote:Though, come to think of it, the LACS in HAE did manage to travel a rather long distance in hyper and did find the very quiet ships at both ends, so this might not be as much of a problem as we are making.

I don't think hyperlogs are that complicated a device (they're mostly software based, I'd imagine), and given that LACs are perfectly able to navigate in hyper even though they have no way of reaching it independently, the assumption that they do carry hyperlogs is an easy jump to make.

That being said, the LACs finding the wreckage of Wayfarer was certainly an impressive feat of navigation, especially given the hyper transitions involved, but their task was simplified by them knowing exactly what course Wayfarer was taking, and them possibly being able to detect debris or vented atmosphere on the way.

kzt wrote:There are no features in hyper. That's the reason you need the hyperlog. If there were features people would use these rather then trust the hyperlog.

I think there are features, the features just don't bear any relationship to N-space features so they're useless for N-space reckoning.

A thought: Just how much hyper time does a typical Battle Fleet officer have? I get the impression that they do a lot of exercising in N-Space, but seldom leave their home systems.

Weird Harold wrote:

n7axw wrote:Secondly, IIRC, In HAE, Wayfarer had LACs that she deployed in hyper. I would presume that if Wayfarer could do it, a CLAC can do the same thing.

That's why the SLN's only point of advantage would be in a grav wave where missiles and LACs can't be used.

Intercepting fleets and/or convoys in a grav wave is possible -- cf Heleln Zilwicki the elder -- but it would not seem a cost effective tactic, taking far more ships (and luck) to guarantee an interception than simply lying doggo near the hyper-limit with a few ships.

Well, not necessarily.

Launching LAC's to probe ahead of the fleet while in hyper is a counter to SLN vessels attempting a hyper intercept, but at present this isn't going to be standard operating procedure for GA units as they know no one is going to attempt such a thing. Initially at least, the likelihood of GA forces deploying LAC's in hyper for this task will be remote. That will probably change after the first few successful SLN intercepts of this nature.

Of course there are also countermoves the SLN can take to counter this tactic, some of which play off the LAC's main disadvantage in this kind of engagement, mainly their inability to change their hyper band and the fact that other than dedicated unarmed recon birds, LAC sensors aren't going to be in even worse shape than that of a standard warship.

Weird Harold wrote:

kzt wrote:There are no features in hyper. That's the reason you need the hyperlog. If there were features people would use these rather then trust the hyperlog.

I think there are features, the features just don't bear any relationship to N-space features so they're useless for N-space reckoning.

A thought: Just how much hyper time does a typical Battle Fleet officer have? I get the impression that they do a lot of exercising in N-Space, but seldom leave their home systems.

You are pulling that out of thin air. There is absolutely no evidence in the text that there are features in hyperspace, and the fact that hyper-logs are necessary (and so error-prone) is indirect evidence that there are no useful features. With that evidence, I think that the onus is on you to provide a reason for us to agree with you.

kzt wrote:

SWM wrote:I would like to point out that David has discussed the possibility that merchant convoys could tractor a few LACs to their hulls to provide protection. He did not state specifically that he was going to write that in, but it sounded like he probably would.

It's only useful if you have an opportunity to deploy them. If you appear on Alpha with 100 LACs tractored to your hull but are 1.3 LS away from a SLN BC the BC is going to win.

Agreed. But I wanted people to be aware that CLACs are definitely not the only way that LACs could end up in hyperspace to defend freighters. If the freighters transit further away from the Sollies, they have a decent chance.

Gun Boat Diplomacy wrote:maybe I'm wrong but didn't Saganami and Zilwici die honorable deaths fighting overwhelming odds in hyper? why would we think that a Sollie fleet would stand a chance against the GA fleet? granted, a commerce raiding force might stand a chance....if there were no escorts

Engagement range.

The main reason that SLN forces in n-space are only good for targets is that the GA forces can see them and engage them at ranges far beyond the SLN's ability to reply. Since they can shoot at you all day and you can't shoot back, you die and the GA forces don't even get a scratch.

To be successful as the SLN commander, you must drastically shorten the engagement range, preferably down to the point where the GA commander doesn't even see you until you're already within their energy weapon envelope.

Sensor conditions in hyperspace are generally pretty bad, this means that detection ranges can be drastically reduced which can eliminate the range advantage the GA forces have. That isn't the only GA advantage there is, but it is the advantage that otherwise makes SLN fleet engagements vs GA fleets suicidal.

If you can take that advantage away, bring GA fleets into up close and personal range, then SLN units can have a fighting chance and even if they lose, they'll take a lot of GA forces with them which is something the GA can not afford to let happen.

Alizon wrote:

Gun Boat Diplomacy wrote:maybe I'm wrong but didn't Saganami and Zilwici die honorable deaths fighting overwhelming odds in hyper? why would we think that a Sollie fleet would stand a chance against the GA fleet? granted, a commerce raiding force might stand a chance....if there were no escorts

Engagement range.

The main reason that SLN forces in n-space are only good for targets is that the GA forces can see them and engage them at ranges far beyond the SLN's ability to reply. Since they can shoot at you all day and you can't shoot back, you die and the GA forces don't even get a scratch.

To be successful as the SLN commander, you must drastically shorten the engagement range, preferably down to the point where the GA commander doesn't even see you until you're already within their energy weapon envelope.

Sensor conditions in hyperspace are generally pretty bad, this means that detection ranges can be drastically reduced which can eliminate the range advantage the GA forces have. That isn't the only GA advantage there is, but it is the advantage that otherwise makes SLN fleet engagements vs GA fleets suicidal.

If you can take that advantage away, bring GA fleets into up close and personal range, then SLN units can have a fighting chance and even if they lose, they'll take a lot of GA forces with them which is something the GA can not afford to let happen.

But detection range in hyperspace is still a lot longer than graser range. The only way you can get into range even in hyperspace is if you can close to range, or are lucky enough to start close to range when one side or the other transits.

SWM wrote:But detection range in hyperspace is still a lot longer than graser range. The only way you can get into range even in hyperspace is if you can close to range, or are lucky enough to start close to range when one side or the other transits.

However detection range appears to be significantly less then Apollo effective range. I suspect that the Technodyne missiles would be in range at typical detection range, sometimes SDMs will be in range.