Hyperspace Combat and the Solarian Leauge Navy

This is a shoot off of a discussion that originated in the "Solly Fleet Advancements" thread that I though worthy of having it's own discussion topic and that is what is the viability of the SLN attempting to move combat out of n-space and into hyperspace.

The original thought in all of this concerned SLN commerce raiders facing superior defense forces mostly consisting of patrolling LAC's and how such a raiding force could cope with this threat.

The obvious answer is eliminate the system defense LAC threat by attempting to engage merchant convoys while those vessels are still in hyperspace.

Obviously, this has it's disadvantages in that sensor ranges are so degraded an you don't necessarily know the exact hyperband and direction the convoy will approach from (though you can probably made a good guess).

We also have instances in the Honor books where intentional hyperspace intercepts have been successfully pulled off so which it is undoubtedly more difficult, it's probably more along the line of having a 8 knot submarine trying to intercept a 12 knt convoy. It's not quite the sure fire thing that such an intercept might be for a 30 knt destroyer but with skill and patience, it can be done and it can be done in places you couldn't otherwise reasonably operate.

I also think that hyperspace opens up some possibilities for SLN Battle Fleet units attempting to contend with GA main fleet elements which outclass them to an extent that current SLN SD's are no better than targets.

SLN heavy units are useless in long range combat with GA heavy units. In order to even target GA units with SLN missiles, the fleets need to essentially be in knife fighting range. SLN units in n-space have very few options for being able to survive to this range. Even if they do, SLN SDM's and missile defenses are still grossly inferior to the salvo densities and defenses that GA vessels boast. For an SLN task for to have any reasonable chance against a similar GA force, it must get into energy weapon range which is close to being impossible to do under any n-space conditions.

What advantages does hyperspace offer the SLN fleet.

The first of these is that sensor ranges are greatly degraded in hyperspace. While this means it's more difficult for you as the SLN commander to detect the approaching GA units it also should significantly reduce the engagement ranges possibly significantly reducing or even eliminating the range advantage of Manty MDM's and bringing the GA fleet into your own engagement envelope, possibly even you energy weapon envelope.

You also have the added advantage in that if you miss and the GA fleet moves past you undetected, you aren't sitting at the bottom of a gravity well where you're only choices are to surrender or get converted to space debris. At a minimum, failure means you get to live to try another intercept on another day.

So, does this represent a valid SLN strategy or is it unworkable and if so, why?

Thanks.

Yes!

I think hyperspace, especially grav waves where there are no missiles, is definitely the best place for the sollies to fight. However, there are some flaws. First, the GA doesn't need to fight in hyperspace- if they are doing any fighting, they want to do it in realspace, and they will be going after the production capacity of the league (among other things, they also want to try split up the league as best as they can, but that's been discussed in other forums). They definitely dont want to fight in energy range, and with screening Rolands along with the overwhelming compensator advantage, they can probably avoid it. It might happen, but it isn't really an effective way to protect their systems or infrastructure, and I don't see the GA putting too much of their fleet in a place where it could be caught with none of its customary advantages and couldnt escape

quark wrote:I think hyperspace, especially grav waves where there are no missiles, is definitely the best place for the sollies to fight. However, there are some flaws. First, the GA doesn't need to fight in hyperspace- if they are doing any fighting, they want to do it in realspace, and they will be going after the production capacity of the league (among other things, they also want to try split up the league as best as they can, but that's been discussed in other forums). They definitely dont want to fight in energy range, and with screening Rolands along with the overwhelming compensator advantage, they can probably avoid it. It might happen, but it isn't really an effective way to protect their systems or infrastructure, and I don't see the GA putting too much of their fleet in a place where it could be caught with none of its customary advantages and couldnt escape

Yeah it would be tough. But, a large degree of a GA units ability to avoid their SLN counterparts depends a lot of the range at which detection occurs. Compensators and drive nodes need time to change a course vector appreciably and MDM Rolands need to be operating our of the SLN's range to reply before their MDM's give them any real advantage which is sort of the reason I, as a SLN commander want to fight in hyper and why you, as a GA commander don't.

For example, if the Roland, or even a mighty Invictus SD first detects a SLN SD at a point where it is in or shortly will be in that SD's energy weapon envelope, they're not going to be able to refuse the engagement. The shortness of the detection range eliminates much of the impact those technologies would otherwise bring.

For the Invitus, this is a "oh shit" moment, for the Roland it's a short trip to the scrap yard.

The same thing applies to the fleet itself. If the GA fleet finds itself suddenly in knife fighting range of a SLN fleet, MDM's don't give you any real advantage and better compensators in most cases aren't going to let you alter your existing momentum enough to refuse the engagement. Chances are the leading edge of the fleet will drive fairly deep into the SLN formation before they really can take effective action as will the units in many of the ranks behind them.

You can't refuse an engagement you don't see coming, which is the entire point from the SLN commanders seat. It's for exactly this reason the SLN wants to fight you here in hyper and it's why the GA really doesn't. It works strongly to level the playing field between the two fleets.

Yes, after it gets itself a bit sorted out the GA fleet can translate back down to n-space and dare the SLN to follow. However chances are this fight is happening somewhere outside of the hyperlimit, very likely a Long Way out in n-space terms. If you're the GA commander and you alpha translate into n-space a couple of light years from your target, exactly what have you accomplished? You can either try a multi-year n-space transit or you can try and retranslate into hyper with the likely prospect that you'll do so within point blank range of the SLN fleet, not exactly where you want to be. N-space is only an effective counter if you happen to be pretty close to the hyperlimit when you do it.


Now there are risks here, but no worse than those I'd face if I were caught in a gravity well as a GA force translated in at the hyperlimit.

The GA fleet may detect my vessels at ranges beyond those I can effectively reply to in which case, depending on how far out of my engagement envelope you are, MDM's will cut the SLN into shreds. Still, there is enough variance and things that I can in hyperspace do so that at least some of my ships have a decent chance to escape, that being in contrast to the almost certain utter oblivion that awaits the entire fleet in an n-space engagement.

The other bad thing that may happen is I may fail to effect an intercept. In that case the GA fleet reaches it's objective without opposition. This being different from a decision to defend the system in n-space only in that my fleet still survives and can be used to attempt another intercept, either here when the GA fleet attempts to leave for it's next objective, or in the defense of some other system in the future.

You have raised another interesting point that I agree with, and that is an attempt to perform a gav wave intercept. This one I imagine is a good deal trickier and harder to pull off, but if you can manage it, you can eliminate practically all of the GA advantages. This move can be countered by the GA fleet transitioning out of the grav wave into hyper but this can work pretty well for me as well especially if their still a long way from their objective and need to attempt to make the journey completely in hyperspace. That could take months or longer which isn't a bad thing all things considered.

Alternatively we could engage in an energy weapon brawl without missiles, wedges or sidewalls and that works out for me even better. I know I can give as good as I get in a fight like that and GA losses are going to hurt them a LOT more than losses are going to hurt me in the grand scheme of things.

quark wrote:I think hyperspace, especially grav waves where there are no missiles, is definitely the best place for the sollies to fight. However, there are some flaws. First, the GA doesn't need to fight in hyperspace- if they are doing any fighting, they want to do it in realspace, and they will be going after the production capacity of the league (among other things, they also want to try split up the league as best as they can, but that's been discussed in other forums). They definitely dont want to fight in energy range, and with screening Rolands along with the overwhelming compensator advantage, they can probably avoid it. It might happen, but it isn't really an effective way to protect their systems or infrastructure, and I don't see the GA putting too much of their fleet in a place where it could be caught with none of its customary advantages and couldnt escape

Well one problem with trying to fight in grav waves is that except for a few hours at the beginning of the wave ships will be moving at the max speed their particle shielding supports.

I guess if the convoy is composed of ships with civilian grade shielding then the attackers can manage to overtake it. But it'll be zipping along at 0.5 c or so; so even with the greatly enhanced (roughly 10x) accel in a grav wave you can't be lying doggo because the convoy will streak across your entire sensor range long before you can match speed. (And once temporarily out of sight then they can change course, or drop to a different band, or even to normal space)

And if they can get free of the wave and open the range a bit then you're back fighting DDM equipped escorts from beyond SDM range. Not fun. (And they could exit the wave by making it to an edge; changing to a band where it isn't present; or dropping to n-space.


A duplicate of the Selker Rift might be a better bet because you can see farther and the targets are forced to go slower. But since missiles work there you're going to have to take DDM fire to attempt to close on the convoy. Tradeoffs...

Alizon wrote:Now if you do that, I have a couple of pretty good options.

1) I can sit on top of you in hyper while you make your multi-year n-space transit. If you come up back into hyper you can do it right into the maw of my grasers or.

2) I can follow you down into n-space still in knife fighting range.

Chances are I'll choose #1 and get ready for you to reenter hyper because we both know you're going to have to but this time, I'm going to have a really good idea exactly where you're going to do it.

If I'm the SLN commander I'll buy your fuel if you'll drop into n-space out there and try an n-space approach. There's no way I'm going to follow you unless I've already turned your fleet into scrap metal so you can just have a nice multiyear n-space transit where I have put your fleet effectively out of operation for a long time. And yes, I'll be sitting right on top of you in hyper the whole way so the only way to effectively get anywhere is through me.

Don't the ships in n-space only have to move far enough to be beyond sensor range when they reenter hyper? Your SLN units sitting in hyper can track n-space targets from there; so if they don't follow their targets just pick a random direction and spend a week or so building up distance, then make a nice slow transition up (to minimize transit signature). For extra insurance you could pick an uncommon intermediate band instead of going straight up to your top hyper band and add some further lateral displacement before climbing all the way back up to the top.


Very disruptive to schedules but far less so that the multi year delay you were discussing.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Alizon wrote:Now if you do that, I have a couple of pretty good options.

1) I can sit on top of you in hyper while you make your multi-year n-space transit. If you come up back into hyper you can do it right into the maw of my grasers or.

2) I can follow you down into n-space still in knife fighting range.

Chances are I'll choose #1 and get ready for you to reenter hyper because we both know you're going to have to but this time, I'm going to have a really good idea exactly where you're going to do it.

If I'm the SLN commander I'll buy your fuel if you'll drop into n-space out there and try an n-space approach. There's no way I'm going to follow you unless I've already turned your fleet into scrap metal so you can just have a nice multiyear n-space transit where I have put your fleet effectively out of operation for a long time. And yes, I'll be sitting right on top of you in hyper the whole way so the only way to effectively get anywhere is through me.

Don't the ships in n-space only have to move far enough to be beyond sensor range when they reenter hyper? Your SLN units sitting in hyper can track n-space targets from there; so if they don't follow their targets just pick a random direction and spend a week or so building up distance, then make a nice slow transition up (to minimize transit signature). For extra insurance you could pick an uncommon intermediate band instead of going straight up to your top hyper band and add some further lateral displacement before climbing all the way back up to the top.

Very disruptive to schedules but far less so that the multi year delay you were discussing.

Well yes and no. An SLN fleet can move much faster in even that Alpha band that you can in n-space and while I can't track you there, I can send a couple of destroyers off a short way to translate into n-space outside of your n-space engagement range. Once there they can fix their n-space position, your position, course and speed and then translate back up to report.

If I set up a relay of these vessels, which I can pretty easily do, I can use this information to keep track of where you are in n-space relative to where I am in the Alpha Band and keep my fleet just where they need to be so that if and when you translate back into hyper, we'll be effectively at point blank range when you do so, which is about the worst place you can possibly be.

In fact, if I want to really be annoying, I can use this information to translate my fleet into n-space at point blank range as well. I can even attempt to drop on to an particular portion of your fleet with most of my strength, shoot it up and translate back up again. I have the initiative, I can effectively maneuver, you can't, I can concentrate forces, you're not even entirely sure where my forces are. I can even resupply and call for reinforcements if I want to, you can't.

It's a great tactical position to be in if you're the SLN commander. Unless you're and idiot you're going to either tie up a major GA fleet for an extended period of time, months maybe even years, or you're going to get a chance to engage them under the best engagement situation you can possibly have.

If you're the GA commander, you have very few good options. You're best bet is probably to attempt a rapid translation up through the hyperbands hoping you don't take crippling damage along the way and that the SLN isn't going to be able to follow you up (which is BAD as as the ranges from band to band will narrow).

If you can pull that off, you can potentially create some distance before the SLN manages to reach your band and hopefully you'll be out of their most effective range by then. If so, you can then proceed with your mission if you have enough surviving warships to achieve the objective.

But chances are, it will be just that, your surviving warships because you're going to get hurt unless the Sollies are simply completely asleep at the wheel. What you're going to have to count on is the one advantage you do have. You know when you're going to try it. The SLN knows you're going to have to attempt something like it, but they won't know exactly when. It might give you enough of an edge to fight your way out but it probably won't be pretty. And the worse case? The Sollies are ready for you and translate up with you band by band closing the range with every translation until you're muzzle to muzzle.

Worse maybe the Sollies have brought in reinforcements and placed them station keeping on you in some of the higher bands so even if you manage to get past the fleet waiting for you in the Alpha band, you have more waiting for you as you move upwards.

Honestly, there are probably worse situations for a GA fleet to find itself in, but there can't be many.

Alizon wrote:Well yes and no. An SLN fleet can move much faster in even that Alpha band that you can in n-space and while I can't track you there, I can send a couple of destroyers off a short way to translate into n-space outside of your n-space engagement range. Once there they can fix their n-space position, your position, course and speed and then translate back up to report.

If I set up a relay of these vessels, which I can pretty easily do, I can use this information to keep track of where you are in n-space relative to where I am in the Alpha Band and keep my fleet just where they need to be so that if and when you translate back into hyper, we'll be effectively at point blank range when you do so, which is about the worst place you can possibly be.

In fact, if I want to really be annoying, I can use this information to translate my fleet into n-space at point blank range as well. I can even attempt to drop on to an particular portion of your fleet with most of my strength, shoot it up and translate back up again. I have the initiative, I can effectively maneuver, you can't, I can concentrate forces, you're not even entirely sure where my forces are. I can even resupply and call for reinforcements if I want to, you can't.

Yeah, that might work.

Mind you you'd want to be really careful with how you positioned those DDs, and think hard about attempting a pounce from hyper.

Once a ship had dropped out of hyper its stuck for at least 10 minutes while the hyper generator recharges. If you miscalculated (and we've seen that hyper navigation and exits aren't all that precise) you end up within their DDM range and potentially outside your own range.

Or if your DDs are far enough out you risk the convoy escort peeling off one ship to sneak under stealth until they get within range (and the convoy can play a shell game and use decoys to make it hard to notice that an escort or two is hunting your n-space eyes)
Again, get within DDM range, wait for the next ship to jump down, and you can put several salvos into it while its generator cycles.


I'm not saying your revised plan can't work; just that it's definitely not risk free. Your commander would need to be on the ball to pull it off.

That said, if I had the tonnage advantage I'd probably go for trying to jump them as soon as they hit n-space. Less time for them to pull something sneaky or take out the (necessarily) dispersed units I'm using to try to keep tabs on them.

There seems to me to be some things to consider here.

The most obvious has to do with the comparative quality of the sensors both sides are using. Sollies are probably superior to merchi sensors. But if the escort is Sag-cs or Rolands, the Sollies probably get spotted before they spring their surprise.

Secondly, IIRC, In HAE, Wayfarer had LACs that she deployed in hyper. I would presume that if Wayfarer could do it, a CLAC can do the same thing. Given the poor sensor conditions in hyper, a wing of graser armed Shrikes would be far harder to detect than BCs and could rather unpleasantly turn the tables on who surprises who.

Don

n7axw wrote:There seems to me to be some things to consider here.

The most obvious has to do with the comparative quality of the sensors both sides are using. Sollies are probably superior to merchi sensors. But if the escort is Sag-cs or Rolands, the Sollies probably get spotted before they spring their surprise.

Secondly, IIRC, In HAE, Wayfarer had LACs that she deployed in hyper. I would presume that if Wayfarer could do it, a CLAC can do the same thing. Given the poor sensor conditions in hyper, a wing of graser armed Shrikes would be far harder to detect than BCs and could rather unpleasantly turn the tables on who surprises who.

Don

If both groups are under power then yes, I'd expect the RMN escorts to spot the SLN units at least a bit before they themselves were spotted. But if the SLN are coasting along with their drive down (or if in a 'wave at least having their sails tuned just to steady them) they can much more easily be stealthed. In that scenario the RMN's superior sensors are probably more than offset by the vastly different levels of detectability of the two forces.

As the the LACs. Yes, assuming the convoy is outside a grav wave and assuming a CLAC is present it's certainly capable of launching LACs in defense. Now a CLAC is a pretty high value asset to use for routine convoy escort; I doubt any but the most valuable convoys would rate that level of protection. Also, the convoy commander would have to be pretty sure they wouldn't need to jump to a different band; because if they were force to do so they'd be abandoning any LACs that had moved too far from the convoy - so you'd need to balance the risk of abandoning LACs against their addition to the fight.