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Defeating a numerically superior enemy.

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Re: Defeating a numerically superior enemy.
Post by Incognitia   » Mon May 05, 2014 6:32 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
SYED wrote:...how would an army defeat an armored vehicles on such perfect roads.


Make the roads less perfect? :o


Or run off to either side of it, and sweep back in to destroy it's ammunition and food supplies behind it. I wouldn't rate the possibility of making an off-road armoured vehicle in useful numbers, and something so totally pinned to the - admittedly excellent - available roads is likely to lose to an army with tactical flexibility courtesy of dragon-powered logistics.
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Re: Defeating a numerically superior enemy.
Post by Tenshinai   » Mon May 05, 2014 7:43 am

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SYED wrote:THe roads on the main land were built to epic standards, so I was thinking, they could create something like an armored tank, or gun carriage, moved by peddle power possibly. how would an army defeat an armored vehicles on such perfect roads.


No, seriously bad idea. Terrible even.

First of all, for it to be a tank it needs enough armour to deal with common cannons available for the enemy.

And you need that to cover everyone inside, including the poor guys doing the pedalling.

Without being able to go offroad, it will require as much armour to the sides and preferably rear as the front.

At this point, even if we´re being super optimistic, you´re looking at a behemoth above 20 tons already(1t of that being a single cannon with ammo).

And for comparison, a single liter of petrol holds more energy than the constant work of an average human for a week(without rest).

Historically, a 20t tank would use several litres per hour of petrol to get anywhere.
A 10t tank historically used about 1 liter petrol per km. So, how many people will you need to do the pedalling to even reach a quarter of slow walking speed?

Always more than you can fit inside the armour.

There´s good reason noone actually built a tank until there was something better than human or animal power available.
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Re: Defeating a numerically superior enemy.
Post by MWadwell   » Mon May 05, 2014 8:01 pm

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Tenshinai wrote:(SNIP)

Essentially, COs had to plan the use of Tigers a bit different from lighter tanks due to how they needed maintenance after any prolonged movement. Give the crews an hour after the inital approach towards a battlefield and they could be very reliable when entering combat afterwards.
Try to skip on the maintenance and a quarter even a third would break down before the day was over.

When used correctly by a CO, some crews managed to keep their Tigers running for weeks of combat without breakdowns, which is actually better than other tanks.

Hence why i reject the notion of it being unreliable. It was simply too heavy for what tech at the time could manage, so it had to be pampered a bit to make sure nothing fell off at a bad time. ;)


I agree!

There's a story (and I'm going from memory - so there will be errors), about 12 tigers attacking the allies in Italy.

To do so, they had to cross a railway embankment.

That was O.K. on the attack, but during the attack, one tank had it's engine disabled by allied aircraft, and another tank was destroyed by anti-tank fire. So, the damaged tank was being towed back to German lines.

Remember the embankment? Well, the first tank that tried to tow the damaged tank over, damaged it's gearbox.

Then when the two immobile tanks were tried to get back over the embankment, the towing tanks blew either their gearboxes, or their engines.

Long story short, half the company had to blow their own tanks as they couldn't be recovered, and of the other half, 50% of them were mobility casualties....


As Tenshinai said, the TC's need to use the Tigers correctly....
.

Later,
Matt
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Re: Defeating a numerically superior enemy.
Post by Steambucket   » Tue May 06, 2014 3:12 pm

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Has anyone considered that with the assumed tech cap (OBS) and that the EoC has triple expansion steam power, and with a history of titles behind him already, could we see something akin to a steampowered Bolo? :?

The reason steam powered tanks haven't really been used is that steam power hadn't reached it's full potential yet, plus the inefficientcy of steam engines to begin with. They not only have to carry the fuel for the firebox but also the extra water for the boiler. A large portion of a steam locomotives tender was water tank in the later years. Even in the 1950's steam locomotives were only using double expanstion engines. And EoC has taken that further to triple expansion. Anyway you slice it just housing the powerplant would require a machine structure, which is why I mentioned Bolo instead of tank.

Just a thought...
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Re: Defeating a numerically superior enemy.
Post by Tenshinai   » Tue May 06, 2014 5:58 pm

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Steambucket wrote:Has anyone considered that with the assumed tech cap (OBS) and that the EoC has triple expansion steam power, and with a history of titles behind him already, could we see something akin to a steampowered Bolo? :?

The reason steam powered tanks haven't really been used is that steam power hadn't reached it's full potential yet, plus the inefficientcy of steam engines to begin with. They not only have to carry the fuel for the firebox but also the extra water for the boiler. A large portion of a steam locomotives tender was water tank in the later years. Even in the 1950's steam locomotives were only using double expanstion engines. And EoC has taken that further to triple expansion. Anyway you slice it just housing the powerplant would require a machine structure, which is why I mentioned Bolo instead of tank.

Just a thought...


Howdy and welcome to the forum.

The topic has been up repeatedly, the last one i recall is this:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2317
Though i know there´s a longer thread somewhere.
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Re: Defeating a numerically superior enemy.
Post by Larry   » Tue May 06, 2014 10:42 pm

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Tonto Silerheels wrote:Miniscule spoilers

I was musing yesterday about how a force would undertake to defeat a numerically superior enemy, <SNIP> a rule of thumb regarding how many forces it takes to defeat how many. If I remember correctly there were a number of rules-of-three. <Snip>
~Tonto


First thought. Beware rules of thumb, while useful for general calculations they can mislead you in actual battle. For a better thought on how to defeat a numerically superior enemy it's important to consider actual dispositions of forces and goals both tactical and strategic. Consider for example irregular warfare where the goal is to use guerrilla operations to sabotage vital communications and logistical targets. The force ratios here are quite high in balance yet a small force can selectively handicap a much larger force. The commerce raiding that Charis should be familiar with is a good start for portions of the strategy. Also the winter campaign that the EOC forces in northern Siddermark are about to conduct will utilize the element of tactical surprise to act as a force multiplier which may or may not have been written on the list from the book you quote. Charisian forces have also been good so far at Defensive engagement and bringing local superiority of force to bear as well as exploit attacks. What they have NOT done (and are smart to have avoided) are headlong attacks into enemy defenses. Being conscious that it's better doctrine and weapons superiority give it advantages in mobility and force concentration, the EOC forces will continue to fight in flank or weak spot concentration style attacks. Hit the enemy were he isn't strong and inflict maximum damage then withdraw while building strong defense points on major choke holds will be their MO for the time being. Polish off minor players and use the AOG's tactical weakness in coordinating such a huge behemoth of forces, by pinching and defeating in detail AOG army columns and groups that get seperated from main unit concentrations will be the signature of the campaign in Summer coming. Because of Merlin and the drone skimmers relaying tactical intelligence Charis should achieve high success rates at this. The problem is that while such a strategy can and should allow Siddermark to stabilize and regain much of it's territory and bring control to much of the Dohlar and even neutrality in Silkah. I don't think it can allow much room against the Desnarian or South Harchongese empires. Nor will it be effect against the border states or the rest of the main continent. There is simply too much land and too many people to wade through in these areas. At that point the EOC is overextended and vulnerable to supply line strikes as well as rear area partisan attacks and defeat in detail counter attacks by numerically superior (and equipped with improving weapons tech) AOG forces. EOC can only advance to the point that there is friendly territory behind it and contested or enemy land before it. At that point, even with better weapons and training it's forces must stop and assume a defensive stance.

Larry
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Re: Defeating a numerically superior enemy.
Post by octavian30   » Wed May 07, 2014 5:33 am

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Larry wrote:
Tonto Silerheels wrote:Miniscule spoilers
that while such a strategy can and should allow Siddermark to stabilize and regain much of it's territory and bring control to much of the Dohlar and even neutrality in Silkah. I don't think it can allow much room against the Desnarian or South Harchongese empires. Nor will it be effect against the border states or the rest of the main continent. There is simply too much land and too many people to wade through in these areas. At that point the EOC is overextended and vulnerable to supply line strikes as well as rear area partisan attacks and defeat in detail counter attacks by numerically superior (and equipped with improving weapons tech) AOG forces. EOC can only advance to the point that there is friendly territory behind it and contested or enemy land before it. At that point, even with better weapons and training it's forces must stop and assume a defensive stance.

Larry


On the contrary with their huge intel advantage the EOC should continue to advance into enemy territory taking the war to them and destroying an neutralizing the ability of the church to make war at all.
Unlike Hitler's and Napoleon's attacks on Russia the EOC can maintain supply and support along the coasts. Once the Desnarians are rounded up and Eastshire envelops Aivastyn and forces that army's surrender while the same happens in the north to Guarnak then next target should be the Harchong army - currently strung out along the the Holy Langhorne Canal.
Strikes at each end of this line by both EOC field armies at the start of spring should result in the complete disintagration of the Harchong army
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Re: Defeating a numerically superior enemy.
Post by lyonheart   » Wed May 07, 2014 5:40 am

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Hello Larry,

Welcome to the forums, enjoy your favorite CG beverage on the forum. ;)

Rules are indeed meant to be broken, especially when there are few rules in war, though logistics are paramount, ie "the art of the possible" as Desnar learned AGAIN, incredibly as it seems.

Given the ICA's firepower and command, control, and communication [C^3] advantages, NTM greater experience with modern weapons and tactics; open battle favors them even outnumbered several times by their Go4 foes.

When DE had more rifles than the whole AoS, and EHM's doubled that,plus their artillery superiority and superior strategy and tactics, the resulting victory was not in doubt.

But it won't just be BGV.

Earlier posts in other threads have pointed out the disparity between Kaitswyrth's possible 9-12,000 rifles left [he lost >19,000] and Symkyn's ~56,000 means odds of ~9-2 to 6-1; while the artillery odds are even more astronomical thanks to all the mortars.

Ir's March already and the Daivyn is 800-900 miles south of of the Northland Gap [~13-14 degrees of latitude] so Symkyn doesn't need the High Hallow horses or caribou etc.

From the textev Kaitswyrth's first real fortification is ~100 miles west of the forest, while the rest and his HQ is in Aivahstyn, ie a small force with modern weapons divided into even more easily digested 'bites'.

It may be the evidence that Maigwair has found indicates the AAR lied about what Kaitswyrth managed to do, and he may been in even more dire straits because Clyntahn hasn't told the others just how bad the situation is [so no replacement rifles were sent or not enough], which may be useful in loosening his hands when the time comes.

Given Symkyn's firepower and the fact he's considered the third best ICA general, I expect he'll cut Kaitswyrth from his supplies, NTM avoid attacking his prepared defenses until he's destroyed enough an assault will succeed, so he might destroy an AoG army before BGV.

The Go4 have yet to recognise the virtue of finer organization, including corps and battalions etc, yet trying to supply the IHA in one huge lump is too awkward to believe.

I've suggested 4 sub army groups of ~400,000 men: North, Central, South, and Reserve- possibly second South; of which Central could be sent overland to the Charayn canal rather soon.

But by the time it got there Earl High Mount's scout snipers could reach the Fairmyn river to blockade future supplies while the remaining ironclads from SC destroy their barge convoy then on the Daivyn while Symkyn and High Mount then finish off the survivors who managed to hold onto their weapons without drowning etc.

It will take at least another 2 month's before the northern IHA can even reach its Theater Of Operations [TOO] probably three, permitting BGV and Symkyn to repeat the same tactic of cutting it off from its supply line [Langhorne canal] again without much heavy fighting.

This puts BGV near Salyk where he can quickly be transported to Port Harbor and the Zion River in a couple of 5days sometime in June-July, while all his winter gear means he can handle staying over the next winter as needed.

The other 2 IHA are by then too far south to stop Symkyn from heading further west down the Langhorne canal etc, while collapsing all the border state nations along the way.

DE could outmaneuver Rychtyr by cutting his supply line forcing him to retreat back into Dohlar without an assault.

OTOH, we have yet to see what the inner circle has done to weaponize their signal rocket, so I suspect RFC is waiting for a propitious moment such as a meeting engagement battle to demonstrate what massed Katusha/Hale type rockets with dynamite (rockets are far slower accelerators than cannon) or picric acid warheads can do to an army stuck on a road, or simply attempting to move into its battle position while shorter ranged mortars hammer those closer...

More snippets please,

L


Larry wrote:
Tonto Silerheels wrote:Miniscule spoilers

I was musing yesterday about how a force would undertake to defeat a numerically superior enemy, <SNIP> a rule of thumb regarding how many forces it takes to defeat how many. If I remember correctly there were a number of rules-of-three. <Snip>
~Tonto


First thought. Beware rules of thumb, while useful for general calculations they can mislead you in actual battle. For a better thought on how to defeat a numerically superior enemy it's important to consider actual dispositions of forces and goals both tactical and strategic. Consider for example irregular warfare where the goal is to use guerrilla operations to sabotage vital communications and logistical targets. The force ratios here are quite high in balance yet a small force can selectively handicap a much larger force. The commerce raiding that Charis should be familiar with is a good start for portions of the strategy. Also the winter campaign that the EOC forces in northern Siddermark are about to conduct will utilize the element of tactical surprise to act as a force multiplier which may or may not have been written on the list from the book you quote. Charisian forces have also been good so far at Defensive engagement and bringing local superiority of force to bear as well as exploit attacks. What they have NOT done (and are smart to have avoided) are headlong attacks into enemy defenses. Being conscious that it's better doctrine and weapons superiority give it advantages in mobility and force concentration, the EOC forces will continue to fight in flank or weak spot concentration style attacks. Hit the enemy were he isn't strong and inflict maximum damage then withdraw while building strong defense points on major choke holds will be their MO for the time being. Polish off minor players and use the AOG's tactical weakness in coordinating such a huge behemoth of forces, by pinching and defeating in detail AOG army columns and groups that get seperated from main unit concentrations will be the signature of the campaign in Summer coming. Because of Merlin and the drone skimmers relaying tactical intelligence Charis should achieve high success rates at this. The problem is that while such a strategy can and should allow Siddermark to stabilize and regain much of it's territory and bring control to much of the Dohlar and even neutrality in Silkah. I don't think it can allow much room against the Desnarian or South Harchongese empires. Nor will it be effect against the border states or the rest of the main continent. There is simply too much land and too many people to wade through in these areas. At that point the EOC is overextended and vulnerable to supply line strikes as well as rear area partisan attacks and defeat in detail counter attacks by numerically superior (and equipped with improving weapons tech) AOG forces. EOC can only advance to the point that there is friendly territory behind it and contested or enemy land before it. At that point, even with better weapons and training it's forces must stop and assume a defensive stance.

Larry
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Defeating a numerically superior enemy.
Post by MWadwell   » Wed May 07, 2014 9:34 am

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octavian30 wrote:
Larry wrote:that while such a strategy can and should allow Siddermark to stabilize and regain much of it's territory and bring control to much of the Dohlar and even neutrality in Silkah. I don't think it can allow much room against the Desnarian or South Harchongese empires. Nor will it be effect against the border states or the rest of the main continent. There is simply too much land and too many people to wade through in these areas. At that point the EOC is overextended and vulnerable to supply line strikes as well as rear area partisan attacks and defeat in detail counter attacks by numerically superior (and equipped with improving weapons tech) AOG forces. EOC can only advance to the point that there is friendly territory behind it and contested or enemy land before it. At that point, even with better weapons and training it's forces must stop and assume a defensive stance.

Larry


On the contrary with their huge intel advantage the EOC should continue to advance into enemy territory taking the war to them and destroying an neutralizing the ability of the church to make war at all.
Unlike Hitler's and Napoleon's attacks on Russia the EOC can maintain supply and support along the coasts. Once the Desnarians are rounded up and Eastshire envelops Aivastyn and forces that army's surrender while the same happens in the north to Guarnak then next target should be the Harchong army - currently strung out along the the Holy Langhorne Canal.
Strikes at each end of this line by both EOC field armies at the start of spring should result in the complete disintagration of the Harchong army


I agree with Larry - until the alliance put together by the Temple start to disintergrate, there is a limit to what the EOC can achieve.

First point, it is a battle army - not an army of occupation. It's manpower is too small to occupy large populations (in the hundreds of millions), and still maintain a force on the front line.

So taking (and holding) large tracts of population/land is out. (Of course, taking and holding individual cities, towns, fords, canal locks, etc is O.K.)


The next point, is that the EOC intel coverage is "spotty". While snarcs can be placed everywhere, they are only as useful as what they are tasked to do (remember the surprise generated when wagons started blowing up, and the amount of missing gunpowder was discovered?) While missing an army is different to missing an individual, I just want to point out that the EOC isn't "All Seeing".

The last point, is that not all intel can be used. Not all EOC commanders are in the inner circle, and even those that are cannot always act on what they know, without some justification (i.e. hunches only work so often, and friends of Sensei's can only pop up so often before questions start to be asked about them).


I agree that the EOC has a huge advantage in training, equipment, doctrine, etc - but there are limits to what it can do.

And conquoring the rest of the planet might be one of them.... ;)
.

Later,
Matt
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Re: Defeating a numerically superior enemy.
Post by SYED   » Sat May 10, 2014 7:17 pm

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THe republic needs not fight on the offensive all the time. We know at some pont, the empire will be forced to send their navy against the navy of god, while potentially costly, we believe that charis will emerge the winer. WIth no naval opposition, it would allow the empire to consider going after the temple it self. and with the republic as an ally, they would have a far closer baser which to set out from.
THey need not even attack the temple it self, simply eliminate zion the city. With no city to support the temple, the church would need to pay a fortume to simply keep running the temple as there is no local infrastructure left.
THe church is draining its fund and assets quickly, the more money they cost, the more untenable their position.
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