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Solly Fleet Advancements

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Re: Solly Fleet Advancements
Post by biochem   » Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:37 pm

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One of the key things that made Shannon so effective in the beginning was attitude. At the time the textev indicates that the prevailing atmosphere in Haven was Manticore is technologically superior there is nothing we can do. However instead of bowing down to the "inevitable", she took it as a challenge. She believed that if she just used Haven's current technology in new and clever ways, she would be able win and therefore she did. Given the size of the SL there have to be 100s or even 1000s of Shannons out there. They've probably been sidelined (can't make the boss look bad in the war games) but there are people in the SLN who know who they are and how to get a hold of them. Most of the people with that I can do it attitude and that level of creativity have either been shunted into some remote post or have either left the Navy entirely, but they are not dead. They can be brought back in the current emergency.
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Re: Solly Fleet Advancements
Post by Weird Harold   » Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:41 pm

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SWM wrote:But, for the time and cost invested in building 10 battleships, you could build 8 or 9 superdreadnoughts. Which do you think would be able to do more damage and take more damage?


From the perspective of a reader or otherwise rational planner, I obviously agree with you, bu we aren't talking about rational planners, we're talking about what SLN planners might do.

I can easily see SLN planners sticking with their traditional "swarm" view of their superiority. Especially since they don't have all that many yards capable of building SDs and Case Lacoon has trashed a large portion of their economy.

If some bright young designer (possibly supported by MAlign disinformation,) were to propose a small, highly armored, pod armed, highly automated "super-BB" I think the SLN BuShips would go for it -- no matter what a rational, more traditional, planner might design.

(Think an entire fleet of the old HMS Fearless level of erroneous thinking.)
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Re: Solly Fleet Advancements
Post by Weird Harold   » Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:55 pm

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n7axw wrote:If I were a SLN admiral facing this rather miserable set of choices, I think I would choose the choice Kingsford actually presented to Kolokoltzov at the end of ART. That was to take their BCs, figure how to carry a worthwhile number of Catapharacts and begin raiding systems who have defected and are trading with GA.


Even as he presented it, Kingsford admitted that it was an interim, stop gap measure. The BB proposal is part of "Phase III" of Alizon's plan, not "Phase I" -- IOW, what can the League do if Kingsford's plan saves it long enough to design and build an a answer to the GA tech advantage.

The manipulations of the MAlign in strategic thinking and future designs is probably not going to support any thing that might actually make a difference, and promote "quick fixes" like "super-BBs." (Designed to deliver golden BBs? :lol: )
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

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Re: Solly Fleet Advancements
Post by Jeroswen   » Thu May 01, 2014 12:44 am

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MaxxQ wrote:
Jeroswen wrote:3. Create a seeking head that homes in on gravitic anomalies. Manty probes ruin any chance of a stealthed approach to a Manticoran fleet. Create a seeker that hunts the probes by zeroing in on the gravitic pulses they use. Make it as small as possible but it must fit into an existing ship's broadside missile bay. Be it a Destroyer, Cruiser, etc. You wouldn't want to replace all your missiles but having a couple dozen you could pull up in a que would be very effective.


I'm not really sure, but aren't the grav pulses omnidirectional? Wouldn't that make it difficult to get a lock? Also, I *do* recall textev where the RHN ships could detect the pulses, but couldn't localise them enough to get an actual direction to them. Whether that is a result of stealthing, or because of the omnidirectionality (if it exists) I don't know.

Then again, I could just be full of it... :mrgreen:

Edit: Also, recon probes don't always use grav pulses to communicate with their launching ships. They can also use whisker lasers, which are only detectable by being directly between the probe and the ship, or by being somewhere beyond the ship the laser is pointed at and catching what will most likely be minimal (if any) scatter. That latter seems unlikely, as there's a reason they're called "whisker lasers".


I don't know for certain if it would be possible. But I do know if I had a large bank account and was desperate, it is where I'd put in a lot of money. One side benefit might even be a better understanding of how the FTL com system work. When desperate start throwing spaghetti at the wall. Something will stick. :-)
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Re: Solly Fleet Advancements
Post by SWM   » Thu May 01, 2014 8:31 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
SWM wrote:But, for the time and cost invested in building 10 battleships, you could build 8 or 9 superdreadnoughts. Which do you think would be able to do more damage and take more damage?


From the perspective of a reader or otherwise rational planner, I obviously agree with you, bu we aren't talking about rational planners, we're talking about what SLN planners might do.

Well, the purpose of the thread was to suggest useful things that the League could do. Building battleships does not meet that standard.
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Re: Solly Fleet Advancements
Post by Weird Harold   » Thu May 01, 2014 8:55 am

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SWM wrote:Well, the purpose of the thread was to suggest useful things that the League could do. Building battleships does not meet that standard.


Building Old style BBS does't, no. That doesn't mean that SLN planners couldn't be convinced that a "new style super BB" wouldn't be the solution. It might even be a viable short-term solution depending on how tough they make it and how well they arm it -- it would have to be several orders of magnitude tougher and deadlier than old-style BBs and I doubt the League can manage that.

Realistically there is nothing useful the League can do except surrender if it wants to stay intact. Even surrender at this stage probably spells doom for the League, but it ould be a lot less bloody.
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Re: Solly Fleet Advancements
Post by The E   » Thu May 01, 2014 9:00 am

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Problem is that your "new style BB" would be a ship using a DN or SD armoring scheme, but on the tonnage budget of a BB. Given that most of the additional tonnage a DN or SD has is dedicated to armoring, cofferdamming and so on, what you would end up with at the end would be a ship in the BB tonnage range with the armament of your average BC or CA. Not exactly a good tradeoff, even if we are to assume that the SLN is that stupid (which it really isn't).
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Re: Solly Fleet Advancements
Post by Whitecold   » Thu May 01, 2014 9:47 am

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The E wrote:Problem is that your "new style BB" would be a ship using a DN or SD armoring scheme, but on the tonnage budget of a BB. Given that most of the additional tonnage a DN or SD has is dedicated to armoring, cofferdamming and so on, what you would end up with at the end would be a ship in the BB tonnage range with the armament of your average BC or CA. Not exactly a good tradeoff, even if we are to assume that the SLN is that stupid (which it really isn't).


I guess that is what happened in the design of the Nike. An SD armoring scheme scaled down, to get the heaviest possible actives and passives within the available tonnage. Given the lethality of Manty missiles, it ends up a more balanced than the overgunned BC(P). However current Solly missiles lack that punch, but then most SLN systems need significant improvements to get a viable combatant again.
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Re: Solly Fleet Advancements
Post by phillies   » Thu May 01, 2014 10:40 am

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phillies wrote:They need something resembling a victory, or at some point crew morale will be one with the 1918 German Grand Fleet, namely crews will mutiny if they are asked to fight RMN RHN G etc warships.

Also, the Beowulf secession has to be put down or the League will fragment.

Finally, the OFS occupied outer worlds need to be calmed or disaster will follow for the budget.

Their available move is to recall the 700 SD fleet, summon everything that can fly to a single meet-point, including FF, and seek to stomp on Beowulf with the full force of the Invincible Solarian League Navy. Courier boats must take along sealed orders "do not open until you are resupplied and in hyper". I infer this will take about four months, even allowing that the huge fleet is sort of ready to advance and most other people are closer.

My rationale is (i) Beowulf must be stopped, (ii) the ISLN is adequately more powerful than the BSDF and a small RMN fleet that will also be stomped when taken by surprise via emergence from hyper on top of the warp point, (iii) if this does not work, defeat is certain.


Mind you, I expect that they will find (i) the ISLN cannot actually beat the forces at Beowulf, (ii) they will lose most of their fleet, (iii) They will receive a present from the RMN commander, a historic antique, a 2000-year-old paperback copy of Kuttner and Moore's Not This August with the early page including the sentence "The United States no longer has a fleet in being" marked, and suggestions as to terms. Terms that include withdrawal of the OFS from all occupied worlds, return of all stolen taxes etc, criminal penalties against major transtellars along treatment of the Japanese zaibatsu except much more thorough, etc. Partition would not be suggested.
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Re: Solly Fleet Advancements
Post by Weird Harold   » Thu May 01, 2014 11:07 am

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The E wrote:Problem is that your "new style BB" would be a ship using a DN or SD armoring scheme, but on the tonnage budget of a BB. ...


True. I do see all the disadvantages, but I also see how such a boondoggle could fit the existing SLN prejudices and, more importantly, fit their budget and existing shipyard capacity.

I'm not sure what route might be taken to make a "super BB" "tougher" or what advances in offensive missile technology might be available for Alizon's "Phase III" build out, but compromises will have to be made (and rationalized) that would look good on paper but won't work out in practice.

To make things perfectly clear, I don't think a Super BB would be good for much beyond running for cover faster than bigger designs. Running for cover is about the only real option the SLN has before the league collapses. The League is going to leap on anything that smells remotely like a "Silver Bullet" or "Golden BB" and I think there are people around who will take advantage of that desire.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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