Solly Fleet Advancements

ericth wrote:I believe the best use of the existing SLN fleet is as a source of the long lead-time components needed to build modern designs.

The sort of components the republic used in the pre-Thunderbolt build up are what I'm thinking of. They were able to produce so many so quickly because they had stocks of them to put into the every hull as it was built. Salvaging components from an existing SD might be a fair bit of work, but probably not that bad if you dont care about the condition of the hull afterwards. If you go in from the floor and roof and dont care about gutting it along the way you could get at stuff fairly quickly.

We have textev that fusion reactors are a very long lead time item, and the ones in the old SDs are probably perfectly serviceable for the new construction. Hyper generators, impeller nodes, and similar items are likely in the same category.

What are you going to put them in?

It will take at least a couple of years to create a design and trouble-shoot it, then a further 2-3 years (if not more) before the first examples come out the shipyards.

Oh wait, that was Manticore, when they were creating new SDs and DNs every few years, and had managed to greatly accelerate production to where they could produce hundreds of SDs in the few years those ships were in production.

The SLN hasn't designed a SD for 200 or so years. There is no-one alive with experience in designing SDs... let alone introducing a new design for production!

Yes, let us put parts designed ~100 years ago, used and/or battle damaged, and built with Solarian specifications and logistics in mind. There is no way this could possibly backfire.

Bolthole's stockpile of parts were modern and supplied for Haven, by Haven. That is what made good drop-in construction, not simply having the parts on hand.

Potato wrote:Yes, let us put parts designed ~100 years ago, used and/or battle damaged, and built with Solarian specifications and logistics in mind. There is no way this could possibly backfire.

Bolthole's stockpile of parts were modern and supplied for Haven, by Haven. That is what made good drop-in construction, not simply having the parts on hand.

The basic technology for Haven's SD parts had been supplied by SL transtellers. The SLN is hopelessly obsolete not because the SL does not have advanced technology but because the SLN is imbecilic. Even if the SL disintergratesbefore the SLN can produce new ships, the advanced technology base will be available to the various transtellars who will market military technology to the SDFs of the various successor states.

ericth wrote:I believe the best use of the existing SLN fleet is as a source of the long lead-time components needed to build modern designs.

The sort of components the republic used in the pre-Thunderbolt build up are what I'm thinking of. They were able to produce so many so quickly because they had stocks of them to put into the every hull as it was built. Salvaging components from an existing SD might be a fair bit of work, but probably not that bad if you dont care about the condition of the hull afterwards. If you go in from the floor and roof and dont care about gutting it along the way you could get at stuff fairly quickly.

We have textev that fusion reactors are a very long lead time item, and the ones in the old SDs are probably perfectly serviceable for the new construction. Hyper generators, impeller nodes, and similar items are likely in the same category.

If Manticore can crack the Streak Drive (courtesy of Simoens) then they're unlikely to want to use convention hyper generators in their new construction. But I admit that's no necessarily likely to happen in the next couple years.


More significantly I'd like to touch on impeller nodes. We've been told that nodes need to be designed for the "displacement" of the ships and also work best if they're designed around the expected compensator limits.

So I don't see ex-SLN nodes being useful to Manticore. SLN ships are noticeably smaller for each class, meaning the nodes aren't the right size for new Manticoran designs. And Manticore has compensators that let you pull around 150% the accel of the SLN's so even if they wanted to build something the size of a Scientist or Vega class the nodes aren't a good match to the new design's accel.

And of course the Beta nodes wouldn't be used because Manticore is going with (fewer / more powerful) Beta-squared nodes on all new construction to save mass/volume.


The fusion generators might be a better match in terms of power and size, but they're buried so deeply in the multiply armored hull that pulling them intact is probably more work (but obviously of a very different kind) than simply building new ones.

I think you're getting this thread confused with the 'Light bulb' one:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5494

This thread's about what could be done to make the SLN in some way competitive against the GA.

I suspect that he means that the SLN could cannibalize their old ships to build new ones. They have had little to no advancement since most of these hulls were built, so I don't really see a problem with doing this, but I think that most of the League navy will be blown in by the time somebody in the League designs a ship that can actually work.

Dafmeister wrote:I think you're getting this thread confused with the 'Light bulb' one:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5494

This thread's about what could be done to make the SLN in some way competitive against the GA.

crewdude48 wrote:I suspect that he means that the SLN could cannibalize their old ships to build new ones. They have had little to no advancement since most of these hulls were built, so I don't really see a problem with doing this, but I think that most of the League navy will be blown in by the time somebody in the League designs a ship that can actually work.

Dafmeister wrote:I think you're getting this thread confused with the 'Light bulb' one:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5494

This thread's about what could be done to make the SLN in some way competitive against the GA.

Oops. Yeah. I was thinking his post was about the captured ships; not the in service or mothballed SLN units still under SLN control.

Scrapping some of those for parts isn't necessarily the worst idea in the world. Given imagination that could let you get something of a jump on construction. You'd still have to ramp up facilities to build the things you could scavange (armor, faster cycling CM launchers, pods, etc) but you could go with Grayson style building slips and reuse as much as possible to cut down on the amount of facilities and factories you have to build before really ramping up ship production.


Of course as you implied, crewdude48, there's no real point to building until you've got a design (and systems) that's within shouting distance of the GA.

I'm thinking the Solarian League needs to approach this from a couple of different angles.

Short term Phase I:

The Solarian's aren't going to be able to begin construction on new designs for some time so the first order of business needs to be determining how to make their existing vessels more survivable. In this, both Manticore and Haven have paved the way.

The crippling disadvantage which Solarian vessels face is in long range missle combat and defense. Manitcore has already shown how older combat vessels can be upgraded to more modern standards. Haven has shown how you can create work arounds using a lower tech base to close the gap between their technology and the RMN.

What the Solarians desperately need is missile pods, and something something worthwhile to shoot from them. Because missile pods are external, the Solly's can their missiles big if they need to in order to get the range they will need. This reduced the number of missiles per pod but the first criteria is range and if you throw away the requirement that the missiles have to be fired by shipborne launchers, it gives you lots of options to work with.

In the Pod area, the Solly's will probably have to resort to towing pods into battle while they work on better designs. This will impact their speed but if they can bring enough ships with enough pods to the party and they can get the range then that will be good enough for a first step.

Once you have all of those pods and missles, you need enough fire control to control them. In this area both the RMN and RHN have paved the way solving most of the basic problems. The Solly Halo system is a set in the right direction if the Solly's convert the systems to assist with fire control and then improve upon the basic idea. Also shipboard fire control is largely an electronics issue and while the Solarian League may have been building essentially the same basic SD design for a century doesn't mean that they don't have access to sophisticated electronic systems that could materially improve the fire control performance of existing Solly vessels.

Finally you need far better point defense systems. Fire control improvements will help here and necessity is the mother of invention. The Solly ability to launch counter missles from shipboard missle tubes is helpful but a better solution is to significantly improve fire control so the systems they do have can be more effective as well as to drastically increase the number of point defense batteries available for each vessel. If you're worried about room, well you have a number of onboard missile batteries which are next to useless whose space can be converted as well as a bunch of Grasers which will do absolutely no good in most engagements with the Manties.

Now, if these kinds of improvements can be made in the short term, say within the next year, ships like this in sufficient numbers could force the RMN to use heavy units to counter Solarian heavy units, say make it so that 3 or 4 Solarian SD's are a match for a RMN BC. This would force Manitcore to deploy heavy units to deal with Solarian heavy units and would reduce the RMN's options and flexibility, especially with a shortage of missile production.

Mid to Short Term - Phase II:

By this stage which would begin about a year following the beginning of stage I, the Solarian's will need to have phase I modifications vessels in significant numbers and be employing follow-on specifically designed systems with improved performance to replace the makeshift upgrades of phase one vessels with vessels currently being reactivated. Phase II is when you should also be seeing the first modified designs begin construction.

These will not be anything earthshakingly radical being basically upgraded versions of vessels already in existence but modified to the extent possible to take advantage of new realities in warfare. These vessels will have state of the Solarian art in electronics and fire control built in rather than added on, significantly improved point defense system in far great numbers and an emphasis in deploying external missile pods and defense of same in preference to internal firepower. These vessels will also eliminate the highly inefficient Solarian systems which were designed to create increased human input in favor of a more rational system within the limits of base Solarian technology. Where possible, these upgrades will also be retrofitted to Phase I modifications.

You might start to see actual innovation on the Havenite model. Perhaps those larger missiles are capable to carrying multiple high speed short range laser heads or better penetration aides.

Mid Term - Phase III:

The Phase II builds begin to come on line joining the remaining Phase I upgraded vessels. By this time you should also have started seeing more capable Solarian missile systems but of a smaller size. These will still probably be capacitor fed by of a much more powerful and capable design than pervious and their reduced size will also increase the throw weight of Solarian missile salvos.

These phase I upgrades will largely have received improved systems mostly if not completely replacing the "make do" systems of the early Phase I period by this time and all vessels slated for upgrade should now be in service. Upgrades will continue for these vessels but the goal will be to replace them as soon as possible by this stage.

You will probably at this time also see the first attempts at an effective LAC platform. These will be closer in capability to earlier Havenite designs but will increase the flexibility of the Solarian fleet especially when used to assist in the missile defense role.

The first of the Phase III designs will begin construction at this time. These vessels may steal a page from Haven in adopting smaller Dreadnaughts, possibly Battleships as a key fleet elements in part to compensate for Manticorian drive node and compensator superiority but also to reduce construction times so that the fleet may begin receiving "modern" vessels as quickly as possible. These vessels will be designed at least with provisions to carry pods within their drive fields and some limited form of pod laying capability may be adopted.

While not all of these designs will be able to carry pods internally due to probable limitations in Solarian missile design, pod laying will be a design consideration so that when pod laying becomes feasible, new vessels of this type can be converted to podlaying with the minimum of delay. These vessels will have improved compensators and drive nodes which, while not equal to Manticorian or Havenite vessels will represent a distinct improvement on earlier designs.

Phase III vessels will be largely new designs however older design elements will still be incorporated into the design due to time limitations in moving these designs to construction.

At this stage, while not the equal of either Manticorian or Havenite designs or technology, these vessels represent significant increases in the capability of the Solarian Navy to act at least in the defense of the League and in limited situations, can begin to act on the offensive.

With the introduction of these vessels, the day of even modern Manticorian CA's and BC's taking on entire fleets of Solarian SD's will be long over. At this point a single new build Solarian SD should be at least an equal match to a Manty BC and several working together should be a fair opponent for a Manty SD.

If the Solarians are able to reach this point with their industrial base behind them, the production of Solarian warships will begin to significant erode the qualitative superiority of Manty technology and design with a superior quantity of adequate if not equal vessels.

Long Term and beyond: Phase IV

The Phase IV and later designs will all be new designs specifically created to incorporate the best known features of Manticorian design melded with the best technology that the Solarian League can provide. If the Solarians can mobilize the R&D portions of their society as well as their industrial base, the Solarians from this point forward will probably be able to close the gap in quality faster than the Manties can push those boundaries forward.

Now of course, all of this is going to take time, but if the Solarians can organize themselves and start making rational decisions, they can close that gap and gain enough technical advancements and work arounds to make their numbers count for more than Manty target practice.

If you have effective missiles but lack effective hulls, the arsenal ships are a workable approach. Not terribly survivable, but if you assume they only need to survive for a limited number of salvos there is no reason to make them very big. They don't even need to carry fire control, they launch missiles and the missiles get controlled by the other ships you have. Essentially they bring missiles to the fight and when the shooting starts the crew bails and runs for it while the ship continues to run on automatic. If by some chance the ship survives you can always reboard it and use it again.

Hi Guys,

From the "Universe of HH" in 'Worlds of Honor', the old league was roughly a sphere ~98 LY in diameter IIRC (almost 500,000 cubic LY's, room for 155+ member systems), and included most of the several dozen systems that had populations near or over 30 Billion that WEB mentioned to Helen in CoS.

At 3000C or 8.21LY/day a db or warship needs at least 6 days one way from Sol, but how often do you send the db?

Once a week to all your R&D and production pardners, regardless of any hiccups or unknown unknowns that crop up suddenly?

There are limits to the numbers of even SL db's.

Then there is the likely reception to recent events.

I suspect those near Beowulf or in its 'communications shadow' from Terra are much less likely to to agree with the mandarins than Beowulf, which might help explain much of the quarter of the EC that voted with Beowulf, though its influence might be far greater than even that.

Besides the communication shadow region of the league, Beowulf has a 5 day lead in spreading news from the junction, NTM at least ten days before getting a reaction back from Earth, which is plenty of time to frame the news and its discussion, to set the public's reaction in close to half the league, yet the repercussions of that have yet to be seen in 'old Chicago' and the calculus of the mandarins.

While it hasn't figured much in the saga so far as we know it, Beowulf appears to have at least one the best reputations of any member of the SL, having and continuing to do more for others than any other member mentioned by name, especially from the 'old league', including having led the effort to save Earth, discover and provide prolong, while domestically also being quite an example of freedom and epitomizing egalitarian meritocracy etc.

Can you imagine if someone else had invented prolong, then made it available exclusively to the rich?

So we have the textev impression that Beowulf represents if not epitomizes the best of the SL to the rest of the SL beyond Earth, that among other personal characteristics they're not as arrogant as the rest of the 'old league' sollies one meets; yet the mandarins have blamed it for their failures, deliberately and repeatedly humiliated it, almost kicking it out of the SL.

If they're going to treat such a major pillar of the league that way, when if ever will they treat anyone in the shells or the verge any better?

This is quite obvious to all the people of the still shorted shell systems, NTM the verge and protectorates, so one wonders exactly who and why anyone of them will want to stay in the SL longer than they have to.

I expect the GA to be approached soon by dozens, and not too much longer before it becomes hundreds of systems, all seeking to join or aid to throw off the OFS and SL yoke so they can.

For many systems in the verge and shells, Beowulf standing for the constitution and the rule of law was their last hope for change within the system.

The jerks running the SL seem oblivious to how they've mortally wounded the SL's reputation among all those who didn't like the SL and were hurt by their policies favoring the old league, because they had no choice until the GA.

The reputation of Beowulf repudiating the SL and joining the GA is going to be huge for many wavering systems.

We have yet to see any SL member's reaction to the news of ART etc, but the typical man or woman in the street should have definite opinions about the relative or respective worthiness of the SL and its members, so the attack on Beowulf should drive many if not most even farther from supporting the SL, drastically reducing the R&D and production base available to what's left of the SL.

We know SLN R&D is essentially non-existent, so its really relying on its major corporate suppliers, which given how penetrated they are by Mesa as RFC has hinted, their best ideas have probably already been milked by the MAlg, which is still years away from a true MDM despite almost a decade of intense effort.

Sloth-like speed epitomizes the SL, so theoretical upgrade programs may look nice, but they have no chance of such smooth planned implementation as suggested by another poster (nothing personal), given the chaos erupting when the GA does truly attack the SLN.

I would think attempting to map out the GA plan of attack might intrigue at least some of the posters here, but I don't recall a dedicated thread.

Given the relatively few targets, and leaving a third of the fleet for defense, there won't be much left of BF or the FF a month or two after it starts.

I don't expect much of FF to be left after 6 month's, so while some may join like minded SDF's in the core, darned little will be left in the shells or verge by then.

Any suggestions for the operation's name?

Given RFC's sneakiness, 'Delilah' comes to mind.

L

SWM wrote:

Eagleeye wrote:How many of the Core worlds are near enough to earth to get to them in, say, 4 weeks max one-way, and without using wormholes? Is there a core world in Alpha or Proxima Centauri? In Sirius? In Barnard's Star? In Ross 248? And how are the relations between the Mandarins and these coreworlds or between these coreworlds themselves? Are they able to work together to overcome the technological gap between the GA and the SLN? Because any technological advancements the SLN can achieve in the near future must be developed, tested, produced and distributed either in the Solar System itself or in one of these near-earth Mandarin-friendly Core worlds.

The entire Core is within 4 weeks one-way travel by courier from Sol.