Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 59 guests

Solly Fleet Advancements

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Solly Fleet Advancements
Post by namelessfly   » Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:01 pm

namelessfly

Given a ballistic phase, the range ofatwo stage missile is limited only by fire control.

The Cataphract ISA brute force solution but it is a solution. Once you abandon the concept of a tube Waller in favor of a pod Waller, size isles ofaconstraint. A capital missile final stage mounted on uneven bigger booster can do the job. Putit in a tractored pod. Equip all reactivated SDs with hard points with power ports. Goodhunting.

n7axw wrote:
smr wrote:First, I don't really buy the arguments that the SL is dead because the SL is really big. However, if the SL is dead then what is coming after the SL is going to be truly scary. After the galaxy wide depression, a group of systems unite for self defense reasons. So remember, how does the GA know who is part of MAlign and what's part of union designed to protect themselves and what is part of the MAlign. The GA has not identified one single other than Mesa that is part of MAlign. Now, maybe they can discover who built those missles for Monica and SL. Or, they can discover some information on Mesa or through other sources who is part MAlign.

All it takes is a combination of FF, BF, and some local SDF working towards a common goal with a charismatic political and at least competent or charismatic military leader to be threat!


I agree with this. For its own safety the GA has to break up the League. But it's not going to make the galaxy a safer place as a whole. A certain percentage of these systems are going to turn predatory, making it necessary for everyone to spend more on defense.

Another thought unrelated. I am unsure why everyone seems so enamored with Catapharact missle. IIRC, the thing only has a 15 million klick range when even non Apollo MDMs are closer to 60. Doesn't seem like anything to get overly excited about.

Don
Top
Re: Solly Fleet Advancements
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:13 pm

Weird Harold
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4478
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:25 pm
Location: "Lost Wages", NV

Vince wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:A quick and dirty solution would be to expand the multistage concept to three or four stage missiles fired from pods with command-multiplier processors (a la Apollo). Take Technodyne's System Defense DDM pod and mount a Cataphract or Cataphract sprint-stage on it and replace one missile with a command multiplier/tactical AI.


The Technodyne missiles that were fired from pods that were used at the Battle of Monica against Terekhov's scratch squadron were only extended range single drive missiles.


I stand corrected on the number of drives, but the general idea is still valid -- use the Technodyne missile as the first stage of a multistage missile to get longer range than using a capital ship missile as the first stage.
.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
Top
The Grand Alliance Is Doomed!
Post by HB of CJ   » Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:12 pm

HB of CJ
Captain of the List

Posts: 707
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:46 pm
Location: 43N, 123W Kinda

The grand alliance is doomed. I do not see how they can win the war in less than five years, no matter how many Sollie ships, personnel and orbital military infrastructure they destroy. The Sollie League is just too big.

The Sollies will need less than five years to get their act together. They do not even need to build SD(p) designs. A BC(p) design will be good enough and they can builds THOSE much quicker and in much greater numbers.

They already have the system defence missiles from Teck-a-dyne. Torch got a taste of them already. How about 100 million more of them? Load up vital star systems with them. They also have the makings of a doable FTL system defense.

I keep seeing historical parallels from WW2 when the Empire of Japan rode down in flames their prewar strategic plans, even when they were not working. They also misread the USAs military potential big time. Factor of 100?

Are the Manties and the Grand Alliance biting off more than they can chew? Why have not more cool sane heads understood that the Sollies are that sleeping giant? The Sollies need about three years. They might get more time.

In Europe in WW2, the best main battle tank was German. Had a designed 3 year life span. Extremely high teck. They lasted an average of about 2 months. The Russian T33 tank had a design life of 3 months. The main turret bearings were not even round.

The Russians built thousands and thousands of T33 tanks. The Germans only built hundreds of their best design. The Russian tank was crude and expedient, but good enough. The Sollies only need to build NEW pod type hulls that are just...good enough.

How many new ships can the Grand Alliance build in 3 years? Maybe 5000 of all types? The Sollies, in three years, can build ONE MILLION NEW, BETTER STARSHIPS! Do the math. Hard times they are a comming... for the Grand Alliance.

My opinion only and thank you. Excellent forum. HB of CJ (old coot) :) Anyhow, fertile ground for many new forth coming novels in the Honorverse story line. All the Sollies need to do is hang on and get their act together.
Top
Re: The Grand Alliance Is Doomed!
Post by drothgery   » Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:17 pm

drothgery
Admiral

Posts: 2025
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:07 pm
Location: San Diego, CA, USA

HB of CJ wrote:The grand alliance is doomed. I do not see how they can win the war in less than five years, no matter how many Sollie ships, personnel and orbital military infrastructure they destroy. The Sollie League is just too big.
I think you're overestimating the size differential between the Grand Alliance and the League. The League has ~2000 full members and an unknown 'hundreds' of protectorates. Of which the vast majority of the protectorates and a non-trivial percentage of the full members are either active opposition (because they're part of the Mesan Alignment, because they will go over to the Grand Alliance, or in the case of many protectorates, just because they'll be actively rebelling against OFS if given any possibility of success).

The Grand Alliance is
~50 systems in the Star Empire of Manticore (3 Old Star Kingdom, 17 full members in the TQ, ~30 protectorates in Silesia)
~150 systems in the Republic of Haven
~60 systems in the Andermani Empire (including ~30 protectorates in Silesia)
~50 additional systems between the Maya Sector and other allied single-system polities (Grayson, Beowulf, Erewhon, etc.)

The point being that the League doesn't outnumber the Grand Alliance 100:1 or even 20:1 (and may not even 10:1) in raw population or industrial capacity. And in terms of military production capacity, the Grand Alliance currently has the advantage, even post-Oyster Bay, because it's major powers have been either fighting a war or building up to one for a long time; existing Grand Alliance yards can probably produce over 300 wallers at a time, which is almost certainly rather more than existing SLN yards can. And will hold on to it for a long time, because it takes a long time to build a new shipyard and complete even BC(P)s out of it -- and if the location of said new shipyard doesn't remain a complete secret (which in a political entity like the League is very, very unlikely) then any new shipyards can be attacked in turn. You might think the SLN could just shotgun so many new secret yards that the Grand Alliance couldn't possibly get them all, but the League constitution seriously handicaps their ability to do that given no ability to impose direct taxes (and because it's apparently not possible for the League government to just borrow the money). So forget the SLN coming at the Grand Alliance with impossibly large numeric advantages; it can't do it, and won't.

The SLN might be able to get a 5:1 advantage. But facing Apollo when you don't have it, that's not remotely close to good enough.
Top
Re: The Grand Alliance Is Doomed!
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:35 pm

Weird Harold
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4478
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:25 pm
Location: "Lost Wages", NV

HB of CJ wrote:The grand alliance is doomed. I do not see how they can win the war in less than five years, no matter how many Sollie ships, personnel and orbital military infrastructure they destroy. The Sollie League is just too big.


It's nice of you to present the Sollie viewpoint. :lol: :lol: :lol: I'm sure you'll be comforted by the SL's invincibility while Beowulf, the Renaissance Factor and Adm Gold Peak start peeling systems off the Core, Shell and Verge Protectorates.

IF, and it is a very BIG IF, the Solarian League holds together for five years it might have a chance of some remnant surviving. With the Mesa Alignment, Renaissance Factor, and Grand Alliance all working to cut systems out of the herd and turn them into neutrals or allies, the SL won't be "too big to fail" for long.
.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
Top
Re: The Grand Alliance Is Doomed!
Post by munroburton   » Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:35 am

munroburton
Admiral

Posts: 2379
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:16 am
Location: Scotland

HB of CJ wrote:I keep seeing historical parallels from WW2 when the Empire of Japan rode down in flames their prewar strategic plans, even when they were not working. They also misread the USAs military potential big time. Factor of 100?


If the Empire of Japan had enough fuel and ships to reach the US west AND east coasts with impunity, you can bet the USA wouldn't have gotten any Essexes deployed. Manticore and Haven have experience of long range deep raiding(and a wormhole network mostly under their control) and they do have the ships to pull it off, if they move out within three years of 2nd Manticore.

The USA also had the benefit of seeing the writing on the wall and starting a build-up before war was upon them. The New Tuscany incidents took place in October and November 1921 - the Second Battle of Manticore was June 1922. During that six month window, the SLN government found out they had a war on their hands. Worse, Rajani knew a conflict was coming(for a long time - it took time to preposition Crandall and Filareta) and didn't start planning or preparing for new construction at all, not even after Crandall got blown away by cruisers.

In the meantime, Havenite yards are still very productive, in an absolute quantitative sense. Imagine Japan had forty carriers under construction at the same time they attacked Pearl Harbour...
Top
Re: The Grand Alliance Is Doomed!
Post by lyonheart   » Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:09 am

lyonheart
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4853
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:27 pm

Hi HB of CJ,

I think you meant the T-34 not T-33 tank.

Do you seriously think RFC is going to let the GA lose?

Are we trolling here?

Who in the SL is going to get its act together?

Show me somebody in charge in Old Chicago who has the slightest clue yet.

There certainly aren't any admirals, or senior bureaucrats.

It's simply amazing if not amusing given how often RFC has indicated that the SL and SLN are doomed in his many posts over the past ~8.5 years, that so many posters continue to attempt to save them some how.

To reiterate the stinking extinct equine facts, he SLN is commissioning only a few dozen SD's a year after more than 3 years of construction, compared to Bolthole's ~800 in ~3 years, and the 400 more Haven and its 2-3 known industrialized nearby planets are commissioning this spring (1922) for a ratio, without including the MA, of better than 20-1, possibly more than 30-1.

Having the SLN try to build BCP's in a couple of years when they don't even know the concept exists is just idiotic.

The RMN could build BCP's in a little over a year (~60 weeks or so), and Nike's in about a year and a half (75-80 weeks);while the idea the SLN wouldn't take at least twice as long with a new type is bizarre.

If you don't know, RFC has stated there are only about a half dozen yards in the whole SL that can build SD's, nor is the number that can build BC's that much larger.

While the idea the SL is a sleeping industrial giant has some validity if viewed over at least a ten year period, it's worthless if somebody quietly double taps the sleeping giant in the head, NTM the heart for good measure.

The main problem with the head shots is that the SL has so few brain cells they might miss them entirely. ;)

The Technodyne missile pods were SDM's, ie single drive missiles with a range of just .6 LM despite their size, compared to the Apollo's 4-5 LM range.

Where did you get the idea anyone but the GA has a FTL.com?

Mesa's been trying for at least a decade to reinvent it with little success so far.

The Japanese did not underestimate US industrial power, indeed the IJN knew it would be overwhelmed by sheer numbers from '43-44; ie its window of opportunity was closing, Yamamoto had been publicly warning of the danger in the '30's, despite the threat of the army supported wacko assassin's.

Depending on what source you trust, the soviets built ~39-49,000 T-34 tanks, while the Germans built 1347 Tiger PzKpfw VI's and less than 500 Tiger B's, also known as the King or Royal tiger to the western allies, which are the tanks I presume you're referring to since they also built ~5500 Panthers and ~8500 Mk IV's, hardly hundred's.

The analogy is hardly appropriate since the GA is outproducing the SL in warships by considerable margins as noted above, we have hints Haven has dedicated entire star systems to build a single type of their new cruisers, for which we have no tech data yet, nor how soon they'll appear.

Where did you get the bizarre idea the SL could build a million new, better warships in 3 years?

The numbers are so bad I fear for your sanity, since you haven't paid attention to previous posts.

Quite aside from the known limits RFC has repeated so often on the SLN production base, you assume the whole SL will act as one to oppose the GA, when a quarter of all the delegates present at the Executive Council opposed the Beowulf rebuke, which given how the delegates are chosen, its quite apparent they represent much more than a quarter of all the SL's member system's (perhaps 500-600?), which added to the hundreds of protectorates anxious to get some of their own back, could outnumber those loyal to what's left for however long they last, if they too aren't broken or fractured off for far too many reasons to list here except that they're just human, and the GA knows who they are.

L


HB of CJ wrote:The grand alliance is doomed. I do not see how they can win the war in less than five years, no matter how many Sollie ships, personnel and orbital military infrastructure they destroy. The Sollie League is just too big.

The Sollies will need less than five years to get their act together. They do not even need to build SD(p) designs. A BC(p) design will be good enough and they can builds THOSE much quicker and in much greater numbers.

They already have the system defence missiles from Teck-a-dyne. Torch got a taste of them already. How about 100 million more of them? Load up vital star systems with them. They also have the makings of a doable FTL system defense.

I keep seeing historical parallels from WW2 when the Empire of Japan rode down in flames their prewar strategic plans, even when they were not working. They also misread the USAs military potential big time. Factor of 100?

Are the Manties and the Grand Alliance biting off more than they can chew? Why have not more cool sane heads understood that the Sollies are that sleeping giant? The Sollies need about three years. They might get more time.

In Europe in WW2, the best main battle tank was German. Had a designed 3 year life span. Extremely high teck. They lasted an average of about 2 months. The Russian T33 tank had a design life of 3 months. The main turret bearings were not even round.

The Russians built thousands and thousands of T33 tanks. The Germans only built hundreds of their best design. The Russian tank was crude and expedient, but good enough. The Sollies only need to build NEW pod type hulls that are just...good enough.

How many new ships can the Grand Alliance build in 3 years? Maybe 5000 of all types? The Sollies, in three years, can build ONE MILLION NEW, BETTER STARSHIPS! Do the math. Hard times they are a comming... for the Grand Alliance.

My opinion only and thank you. Excellent forum. HB of CJ (old coot) :) Anyhow, fertile ground for many new forth coming novels in the Honorverse story line. All the Sollies need to do is hang on and get their act together.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
Top
Re: Solly Fleet Advancements
Post by Eagleeye   » Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:09 am

Eagleeye
Commodore

Posts: 750
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:41 am
Location: Halle/Saale, Germany

How many of the Core worlds are near enough to earth to get to them in, say, 4 weeks max one-way, and without using wormholes? Is there a core world in Alpha or Proxima Centauri? In Sirius? In Barnard's Star? In Ross 248? And how are the relations between the Mandarins and these coreworlds or between these coreworlds themselves? Are they able to work together to overcome the technological gap between the GA and the SLN? Because any technological advancements the SLN can achieve in the near future must be developed, tested, produced and distributed either in the Solar System itself or in one of these near-earth Mandarin-friendly Core worlds.

The SLN and the league itself are doomed, if the next Mandarin-friendly coreworlds are too far away to do them any good in regard of R&D. Simple as that. Just my 2 cents.

Communication favors the GA by a far to great margin ...
Top
Re: Solly Fleet Advancements
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:42 am

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 9038
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

Eagleeye wrote:How many of the Core worlds are near enough to earth to get to them in, say, 4 weeks max one-way, and without using wormholes? Is there a core world in Alpha or Proxima Centauri? In Sirius? In Barnard's Star? In Ross 248?
By military ship that'd be other core worlds within roughly 160 lightyears of Earth. (Assuming military propulsion, but not risking the Eta bands - if you're talking courier ship it's almost 200 lightyears for a 4 week one-way transit)

I don't recall if we've gotten a approximate diameter of the League, and we certainly don't have a map of all it's members. So I won't try to estimate how many might fall within that diameter.

(And of course that's just an approximation; any hyperspacial features that required deviation from a straight line course or moving into a lower hyperband would increase transit time considerably and distort that notional "4 week transit" sphere.
Top
Re: The Grand Alliance Is Doomed!
Post by The E   » Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:51 am

The E
Admiral

Posts: 2704
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 1:28 pm
Location: Meerbusch, Germany

HB of CJ wrote:The Sollies will need less than five years to get their act together. They do not even need to build SD(p) designs. A BC(p) design will be good enough and they can builds THOSE much quicker and in much greater numbers.


We know that, for the RMN, build times for BC(P)s and build times for SD(P)s aren't all that different, a BC(P) taking about 18 months, an SD(P) 22 to 24 months.
But, this is the RMN we're talking about. At that point, they were building SDs at a breakneck pace for several years.
The SLN shipyards, on the other hand, are operating in "capability preservation" mode, just building a couple ships per decade to preserve the skillsets needed. Ramping up to full wartime production takes time.

Also, the SLN currently doesn't have several of the preconditions for successful BC(P)s. They don't have updated compensators, making any BC(P) slow and ungainly, and they don't have Keyhole, or Ghost Rider, or good MDMs to put in those pods.

They already have the system defence missiles from Teck-a-dyne. Torch got a taste of them already. How about 100 million more of them? Load up vital star systems with them. They also have the makings of a doable FTL system defense.


Not really. As the RMN and RHN discovered, building MDMs is one thing, making sure you can actually hit someone a few light minutes downrange quite another. Which requires Ghost Rider style recon drones and FTL comms, at the very least.

Are the Manties and the Grand Alliance biting off more than they can chew? Why have not more cool sane heads understood that the Sollies are that sleeping giant? The Sollies need about three years. They might get more time.


However, the League is not a coherent unit at the moment. There are both external and internal forces pushing and pulling at the fabric that holds the League together, and there are already rips and tears in the fabric.

As a cohesive unit, yes, the SLN would be unbeatable in the mid to long term. But in its current, actual state, things start to look much different.

The Russians built thousands and thousands of T33 tanks. The Germans only built hundreds of their best design. The Russian tank was crude and expedient, but good enough. The Sollies only need to build NEW pod type hulls that are just...good enough.


Yes, but "good enough" only goes so far. Your example isn't all that accurate; a more accurate comparison would be WW2 russian tanks vs a force that can easily outmaneuver them and can detect and engage them from far beyond the horizon. Yes, once in a blue moon, a particularly savvy SLN CO will be able to score a few good hits. But most of the time, he won't be able to engage the enemy effectively.

How many new ships can the Grand Alliance build in 3 years? Maybe 5000 of all types? The Sollies, in three years, can build ONE MILLION NEW, BETTER STARSHIPS! Do the math. Hard times they are a comming... for the Grand Alliance.


Not better, certainly. And not a million. The SLN has neither the yard space, nor the money, nor the personnel, to do this. They can certainly build a competitive Navy in rather a short time, but in order to do that, they need a lot of technological upgrades they currently have no access to. And they need the League to stay together for long enough.
Top

Return to Honorverse