Is Duchairn conspiring to overthrow Clyntahn?

Let’s explore the pros and cons of whether or not Duchairn is conspiring against Clyntahn. I went back into the Safehold series to the segments where Duchairn is featured. My initial bias was no, he was not. I continue to think that this is the best guess prior to the purge of Wylsyn’s circle in “A Mighty Fortress.” Almost from the start, at least from the beginnings of “By Schism’s Rent Assunder”, Ducharin is presented as being utterly disgusted with Clyntahn and sickened by where the casually made decision to go to war with Charis has led. Duchairn is conflicted. On the one hand his faith has been renewed, but on the other that means that he has throughout believed that Charis has to be suppressed to preserve “God’s plan” for Safehold. So as disgusted as he may be, he continues to support the Jihad and works hard for it to succeed.

If Duchairn is conspiring, my best guess as to when it starts is in the aftermath of Clyntahn’s purges in “A Mighty Fortress.” He has a couple of conversations with Traynair, one of which proposes the deal with Clyntahn which is as follows. He is not going to attend “murderfests nor will he sanction what Clyntahn is doing, but if Clyntahn will not oppose Duchairn’s charitable work in Zion, he will acknowledge that Clyntahn’s decisions as grand inquisitor are his decisions and Duchairn will not openly oppose them. Out in the open, at least, that remains where things stand at the end of LAMA.

Is a conspiracy going on? I would still say no except for Phandys’ conversation with Rayno where he claims to not feel comfortable with any of the proposed individuals to take his place as Duchairn’s chief guard and watcher. Why not? Has Phandys come to be aware of something he is keeping to himself or perhaps even more, actively conspiring with Duchairn in the same way that Coris’ valet was conspiring with Coris? Then there is Maigwair. He has taken on a lot more three demensional cast, being more favorably portrayed at least since the beginning of MTAT. He is no longer the mental lightweight who follows Clyntahn because he is terrified of him. He and Duchairn have drawn closer together in LAMA to the point where Clyntahn notices and considers eliminating Fultyn who is Maigwair’s pet wizzard to weaken Duchairn’s position. Some of this can reasonably be attributed to their working together to further the goals of the Jihad… but fellow conspirators? Maybe.

So, is Duchairn conspiring? My fellow Weber addicts, you are invited to respond and explain your reasoning….

Yes, he's conspiring.

There's a lot of little things and they start with the letter/package that Heyward ? Wylsynn gave him.

After the execution of the Circle, the package came up in his thoughts about what he should do.

I got the impression that the Wylsynn letter/package provided him with information that would be useful in a new conspiracy.

Oh, I've long suspected that it was not an accident that Phandys discovered the escape plan of the Wylsynn brothers.

IMO Phandys is a former colleague of Heyward Wylsynn and they set up the situation where Heyward killed his brother and fought the arresting Temple guards.

Heyward knew (among other things) that Phandys would make sure Heyward would die in the fight (ie not captured).

IMO part of the information in the letter/package is info concerning Phandys that informed Duchairn that Phandys can be trusted.

In short IMO Duchairn and Phandys are working to destroy Clyntahn *and* those within the Inquisition who are loyal to Clyntahn.

However, I'm not sure if Maigwair is part of the conspiracy at this time.

Phandys may have enough contacts with the Temple Guard to gain assistance from within the Guard that bringing Maigwair into the conspiracy might not be necessary.

On the other hand, Maigwair has grown enough as a character that Duchairn may have brought him into the conspiracy.

n7axw wrote:Let’s explore the pros and cons of whether or not Duchairn is conspiring against Clyntahn. I went back into the Safehold series to the segments where Duchairn is featured. My initial bias was no, he was not. I continue to think that this is the best guess prior to the purge of Wylsyn’s circle in “A Mighty Fortress.” Almost from the start, at least from the beginnings of “By Schism’s Rent Assunder”, Ducharin is presented as being utterly disgusted with Clyntahn and sickened by where the casually made decision to go to war with Charis has led. Duchairn is conflicted. On the one hand his faith has been renewed, but on the other that means that he has throughout believed that Charis has to be suppressed to preserve “God’s plan” for Safehold. So as disgusted as he may be, he continues to support the Jihad and works hard for it to succeed.

If Duchairn is conspiring, my best guess as to when it starts is in the aftermath of Clyntahn’s purges in “A Mighty Fortress.” He has a couple of conversations with Traynair, one of which proposes the deal with Clyntahn which is as follows. He is not going to attend “murderfests nor will he sanction what Clyntahn is doing, but if Clyntahn will not oppose Duchairn’s charitable work in Zion, he will acknowledge that Clyntahn’s decisions as grand inquisitor are his decisions and Duchairn will not openly oppose them. Out in the open, at least, that remains where things stand at the end of LAMA.

Is a conspiracy going on? I would still say no except for Phandys’ conversation with Rayno where he claims to not feel comfortable with any of the proposed individuals to take his place as Duchairn’s chief guard and watcher. Why not? Has Phandys come to be aware of something he is keeping to himself or perhaps even more, actively conspiring with Duchairn in the same way that Coris’ valet was conspiring with Coris? Then there is Maigwair. He has taken on a lot more three demensional cast, being more favorably portrayed at least since the beginning of MTAT. He is no longer the mental lightweight who follows Clyntahn because he is terrified of him. He and Duchairn have drawn closer together in LAMA to the point where Clyntahn notices and considers eliminating Fultyn who is Maigwair’s pet wizzard to weaken Duchairn’s position. Some of this can reasonably be attributed to their working together to further the goals of the Jihad… but fellow conspirators? Maybe.

So, is Duchairn conspiring? My fellow Weber addicts, you are invited to respond and explain your reasoning….

Yes, he is conspiring. Pretty much the same arguments that Drak gave.

To expand a little bit--there is indirect text evidence that Phandys was working with Heyward. We are told that Heyward had been head of the Temple Guard at one point. And that Phandys worked closely with him at that time.

There is also the mystery of the supposed escape plot. Phandys supposedly sniffed out an escape plan of the Wylsynns. But the discussion between the brothers does not support the idea that either one of them planned to escape. One was simply waiting for the Inquisition, the other had decided that they both had to die to prevent the Inquisition from getting their secrets. He knew his brother would not accept suicide. Why did Heyward choose exactly that time to kill his brother? He had to have known the Inquisition was coming. But the reason they were coming right then was that Phandys had told Clyntahn they were trying to escape.

Because Phandys brought the news to Clyntahn, he was included in the party to sieze the Wylsynns. He was in a position to kill Heyward. This evidence of his loyalty got him posted in sensitive positions, most especially as guard for Duchairn. He expressed doubts about anyone else who might be appointed as Duchairn's guardian.

It all makes sense if Phandys was working with the Wylsynns.

At the same time, I believe that Duchairn truly believes that the Church of Charis is an existential threat to the Church of God Awaiting (and he's right). He will work hard to strike down Charis, because he believes in the CoGA. He seeks reform of the Church, and knows that schism will ultimately destroy it.

I've said before that the most dangerous situation for Charis would be if Duchairn successfully overthrows Clyntahn and institutes true reform which is visible to the world.

He is making contingency plans, and in general making preparations. I'm not sure that "conspiring" is the correct term, but let's use it for now.

I think Duchairn's convinced that Clyntahn is due for a fall. I'm NOT convinced that he is ready, willing or able to take down Clyntahn. He may not know the who-what-where-when-why, but when the time comes, Duchairn does want to be prepared to act at the moment of Clyntahn's weakness.

Other than that slight twist or caveat, I agree with the above posts.


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Duchairn may see himself as "making contingency plans" but Clyntahn would see it as "conspiring".

One aspect that I touched on is that Duchairn's problem isn't "how do I remove/kill Clyntahn" but "how do I also take out the would-be Clyntahns within the Inquistition".

There is text evidence and "words of Weber" that Clyntahn has created a major power base within the Inquistition.

So even if he accidentally dies today, there will be a new Grand Inquisitor who would be very similar to (or worse than) him to take over.

Duchairn's "contingency plans" have to include plans to prevent a follower of Clyntahn's "way of thinking" from gaining control of the Inquistition.

I think I'm going to enjoy seeing how David Weber does it.

Ensign Re-read wrote:He is making contingency plans, and in general making preparations. I'm not sure that "conspiring" is the correct term, but let's use it for now.

I think Duchairn's convinced that Clyntahn is due for a fall. I'm NOT convinced that he is ready, willing or able to take down Clyntahn. He may not know the who-what-where-when-why, but when the time comes, Duchairn does want to be prepared to act at the moment of Clyntahn's weakness.

Other than that slight twist or caveat, I agree with the above posts.


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Ensign Re-read wrote:He is making contingency plans, and in general making preparations. I'm not sure that "conspiring" is the correct term, but let's use it for now.

I think Duchairn's convinced that Clyntahn is due for a fall. I'm NOT convinced that he is ready, willing or able to take down Clyntahn. He may not know the who-what-where-when-why, but when the time comes, Duchairn does want to be prepared to act at the moment of Clyntahn's weakness.

Other than that slight twist or caveat, I agree with the above posts.




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Agreed, That Moment is coming and I believe Aivah is waiting for that action. She needs to be in Zion in short order anticipating some specific upheaval. Conspiracy anyone?

DrakBibliophile wrote:Duchairn may see himself as "making contingency plans" but Clyntahn would see it as "conspiring".

One aspect that I touched on is that Duchairn's problem isn't "how do I remove/kill Clyntahn" but "how do I also take out the would-be Clyntahns within the Inquistition".

There is text evidence and "words of Weber" that Clyntahn has created a major power base within the Inquistition.

So even if he accidentally dies today, there will be a new Grand Inquisitor who would be very similar to (or worse than) him to take over.

Duchairn's "contingency plans" have to include plans to prevent a follower of Clyntahn's "way of thinking" from gaining control of the Inquistition.

I think I'm going to enjoy seeing how David Weber does it.

Ensign Re-read wrote:He is making contingency plans, and in general making preparations. I'm not sure that "conspiring" is the correct term, but let's use it for now.

I think Duchairn's convinced that Clyntahn is due for a fall. I'm NOT convinced that he is ready, willing or able to take down Clyntahn. He may not know the who-what-where-when-why, but when the time comes, Duchairn does want to be prepared to act at the moment of Clyntahn's weakness.

Other than that slight twist or caveat, I agree with the above posts.


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We know that there was an election which Wylsynn lost to Clyntahn and Rayno counted the votes there, so there isn't as much a need to stop all of Clyntahn's power base as a need to ensure that the election to replace Clyntahn is open and fair instead of rigged. Of course, that does assume there IS an election, and the straits the CoGA is in mean there may not be a new election ...

I hear you but would it be an "honest" election if the voters (the vicars) were afraid to vote against the Clyntahn faction candidate?

Even with secret ballots, there would likely be a fear of "if Clyntahn the 2nd wins, he'll be looking for those who voted against him".

Of course, there's also the problem of the majority (or all) of the candidates may be Clyntahn types not Wylsynn types.

I suspect that to be a candidate for the Grand Inquisitor position, you have to be a high ranking Schuelerite.

After the purges, there may be no Wylsynn types high enough within the Order to be candidates for the Grand Inquisitor position.

Chemechie wrote:

DrakBibliophile wrote:Duchairn may see himself as "making contingency plans" but Clyntahn would see it as "conspiring".

One aspect that I touched on is that Duchairn's problem isn't "how do I remove/kill Clyntahn" but "how do I also take out the would-be Clyntahns within the Inquistition".

There is text evidence and "words of Weber" that Clyntahn has created a major power base within the Inquistition.

So even if he accidentally dies today, there will be a new Grand Inquisitor who would be very similar to (or worse than) him to take over.

Duchairn's "contingency plans" have to include plans to prevent a follower of Clyntahn's "way of thinking" from gaining control of the Inquistition.

I think I'm going to enjoy seeing how David Weber does it.

We know that there was an election which Wylsynn lost to Clyntahn and Rayno counted the votes there, so there isn't as much a need to stop all of Clyntahn's power base as a need to ensure that the election to replace Clyntahn is open and fair instead of rigged. Of course, that does assume there IS an election, and the straits the CoGA is in mean there may not be a new election ...

DrakBibliophile wrote:I hear you but would it be an "honest" election if the voters (the vicars) were afraid to vote against the Clyntahn faction candidate?

Even with secret ballots, there would likely be a fear of "if Clyntahn the 2nd wins, he'll be looking for those who voted against him".

Of course, there's also the problem of the majority (or all) of the candidates may be Clyntahn types not Wylsynn types.

I suspect that to be a candidate for the Grand Inquisitor position, you have to be a high ranking Schuelerite.

After the purges, there may be no Wylsynn types high enough within the Order to be candidates for the Grand Inquisitor position.

Both are valid points. I think the Clyntahn faction would say that in the face of the existential threat to the authority of "God's Own Church" this isn't the time or place for a "divisive" election that might embolden the followers of Shan-wei by hinting at dissension within the vicarate.

Drak wrote:
Duchairn may see himself as "making contingency plans" but Clyntahn would see it as "conspiring".

Dear Dracobibiophilus-(I assume that's the technical name for the Dragon?)

As I recall, "Runsfor" once dropped the McQueen revolt- end of the Committee, into the beginning of a chapter- and let Theisman deal with it. (fav line- "Say goodbye Citizen Chairman".)

What a bombshell. He could do something like that here. I think that because 1)the war is becoming somewhat predictable. 2)Those in Zion are untouchable.
3) Rfc likes that sort of thing.

In which case, "contingency" plans would be of value. (So would some loyal troops.)