New Manty ship ideas.

Theemile wrote:Well, Rachamort, there is no official "CM pod" in the Honorverse - no side has ever employed or discussed one - only Barflies. The original stats for LACs pod carriage were not for MDM pods but for normal Capitol Single drive pods which existed at that time LACs were introduced, not the MDM pods which appeared in the next book. Since the beginning every pod in books has been handled as a pod (generic)- never have masses or variances in towing capabilities been mentioned by David in text or on the bar until the advent of the flatpack - and all flatpacks have since been handled the same since

Remember, almost all pods in Manty use - except 4 drive system defense pods - are considered to be universal, and the last are just too big to be so. So unless there is a major thought change, any Pod will conform to the size necessary to fill a podnaught's pod launch queue. So any CM pod most likely will have just more launchers if one is ever made, just as the MK16 pod has 14 launchers.

David has been approached on several occasions I know of about using a smaller LAC only pod (for shipkillers), and the "univeral use" argument has always come up in response. (That and Any pod, no matter how small, compromises a LAC's acceleration and Stealth too much.)

Also David will never use pod drives in the Honorverse - he has been very emphatic about that.

We are in a thread for new ship designs and the first thing you tell me is that there is no 'official' CM pods in Honorverse? Come on dude! What is the point of this thread if we are going to be hobbled by such things?

There are counter missiles. There are pods. Pods can be tractored. There are such things as donkey pods. Why is combining all those things impossible/improbable? If it makes sense to us, then it will surely make sense to the weapons/systems designers in Honorverse.

Simply saying they don't exist in the storyline right now is not a valid reason why it can't exist. Laser heads didn't exist before. MDMs didn't exist before. Beta squared nodes didn't exist before. Podnoughts didn't exist before.

Hell, Spider drives didn't exist before and it comes from a non-existent tech tree in Honorverse before it came out.

CM pods are simply a new application for existing concepts.

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As for stealth and acceleration, I've already answered that. Those are very important for LACs that are on attack runs. Not so much for those in anti-missile coverage of a wall of battle. I sincerely doubt that enemies are going to use up their initial salvos to take out the lightest screening elements. It goes against the grain of naval doctrine. Even if they do, I'm betting that GA forces would recognize who the target is and the LACs can simply abandon their tractored donkey pods thus giving them back their accel and stealth capabilities.

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I don't know why DW wont put drives in missile pods. If he doesn't want to, he won't. Not going to bug him with that. It is his universe and he decides what he wants to do with it.

RFC set out his views on powered missile pods here back in '04:

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/176/1

crewdude48 wrote:Mr Weber has talking shot down powered pods:
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/entry/Harrington/176/1

Just out of curiosity, have you read through the Pearls?

Just starting to read some of them, not all.

Thanks for the link, but DW was talking about drive equipped Attack Missile pods. I am talking about pods loaded with CM.

He is perfectly correct if you are going to apply such tech to Offensive pod, the size increase would make it impractical because it would reduce the number of pods a ship can carry. The other disadvantages outweigh the advantages of putting drives in such pods. Also, given the range capabilities of MDMs, there really is no need for it.

A drive equipped CM pod however would not be subject to some of the 'disadvantages' that rule out putting drives on offensive pods.

First of all, you don't need a heavily armored podnough for it. A modified collier can dump them and let your LACs in anti-missile role tractor them and put them in the desired positions relative to your wall.

Secondly, they are not meant to deliver attack missiles closer to the enemy, which means, they aren't exactly going to be 'easy' targets for enemy missiles. Hell, the drives are there to extend the anti-missile envelope but not that close to enemy's defensive fire range.

Stealth? Why would they need it? It's not going to use stealth to attack anything. It's payload is going to use wedge on wedge fratricide to kill their targets. Why would they need to be stealthy?

Rakhmamort, official only meant it has never been built in the story, so there is no text evidence on size etc.

But in the end the main problem of a CM pod is why not just build more LAC's in the first place? A LAC is optimized to control its own missiles, and not more, so existing LAC's can't use them efficiently.
The bottleneck is fire control, and the short engagement window against MDM's, so more birds without an upgrade to go with is a waste of resources. And if you cram additional targeting systems into a LAC, something else has to go. Given that a Katana is already nothing but a CM/Viper launch platform, this would compromise its existing abilities, which gets you back to square one: Why not just build more LAC's?

munroburton wrote:To keep pod logistics simplified, I think any CM pod would have the same external contours as the other pods(IIRC, MK16 pods were the same size as MK23 pods and they accommodated the Apollo control missile by deleting two missiles to retain the pod shape). This means there could be quite a lot of CMs available.

There is no reason why simplified logistics should have more bearing on combat power, in this case, defensive capabilities. There is also no reason why such pods have to be carried by podnoughts. Why not fleet colliers?

Drop a 'stack' of them out of a cargo bay. 1 layer = 6 CM pods + 'donkey' pod in the middle. LACs pass by and tractors the donkey pod bringing its brood of 6 CM pods with it. This can be done behind the wall, maybe far enough behind the wall.

Towed CM pods might have had some merit in the days immediately before pod-layers, when significantly heavier first strikes followed up by lighter shipboard salvos were the norm. However, I don't think it's sustainable in pod-laying combat when repeat salvos are just as large as the first and potentially right on its heels.

They are actually going to be useful in the age of podnoughts. Battles of podnoughts as you say will be huge salvos of missiles again and again and again. If your Anti-missile LACs are only going to rely on onboard CM magazine, they will run dry. Extending their ability to fire CMs would help a lot in keeping their podnoughts alive longer so they can continue rolling offensive pods vs the enemy.

Theemile wrote:Current Havenite Donkey pods are powered by their mothership through beamed power as "The E" mentioned. You would require a rebuild with a Manty micro-fusion reactor for them to be self powered.

There is a reason Sonia has been sent to bolthole so she and Shannon can confer with each other. Are you really thinking they are not going to share ideas so they can improve on the equipment they have now or their use?

Annachie wrote:Hmm, a hull that carried by a big ship, that is self powered so as it can get down range in a wall v wall enviroment, carries counter missiles and can act as a down rane C&C for them.

My god you've invented the LAC.


Slightly more seriously, almost the exact role for the proposed CM pod is done by a LAC anyway.

Nope. You can't extend your LAC cover very far from your wall. You can send your drive equipped CM pods farther out. You can even send them vs salvos designed to skirt/avoid your LAC screen (or even pull them out of the ideal position to support your wall).

Rakhmamort wrote:

Theemile wrote:Current Havenite Donkey pods are powered by their mothership through beamed power as "The E" mentioned. You would require a rebuild with a Manty micro-fusion reactor for them to be self powered.

There is a reason Sonia has been sent to bolthole so she and Shannon can confer with each other. Are you really thinking they are not going to share ideas so they can improve on the equipment they have now or their use?

No, I was informing you that the prevous poster was correct and required power from the mothership to work and the current hardware in the Honorverse was not self powered. If you were discussing a new variant of the Donkey, not the cannon Havenite model, you did not start your proposal properly, stating your were proposing a new generation of the current equipment.

Whitecold wrote:Rakhmamort, official only meant it has never been built in the story, so there is no text evidence on size etc.

But in the end the main problem of a CM pod is why not just build more LAC's in the first place? A LAC is optimized to control its own missiles, and not more, so existing LAC's can't use them efficiently.
The bottleneck is fire control, and the short engagement window against MDM's, so more birds without an upgrade to go with is a waste of resources. And if you cram additional targeting systems into a LAC, something else has to go. Given that a Katana is already nothing but a CM/Viper launch platform, this would compromise its existing abilities, which gets you back to square one: Why not just build more LAC's?

To deploy a LAC, you will need crew for it. I'm sure manufacturing 1 million CM pods won't be a problem for GA. 1 million LACs means 10 million crew slots. Care to go 5 million pods? 10?

I am not suggesting LACs being able to fire off all the CMs in all the CM pods they are towing. The use of the CM pods is to extend the number of CMs available for a LAC to fire. And I did say 10-12 of them in a pod right? I'm sure LACs can control that much because they are designed to fire off 20 attack birds in 15 seconds or so. If they have control links for those plus the capability to defend themselves, then firing and controlling 10-12 CMs would be within their capabilities easy.

Theemile wrote:No, I was informing you that the prevous poster was correct and required power from the mothership to work and the current hardware in the Honorverse was not self powered. If you were discussing a new variant of the Donkey, not the cannon Havenite model, you did not start your proposal properly, stating your were proposing a new generation of the current equipment.

Granted a self powered donkey pod is still not built yet. But it is also true it is not beyond the current tech to build one.

If the GA think-tanks can find a use for such equipment, I'm sure they will build one. I'm just proposing one such use.