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Caliphate of Zanzibar

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Caliphate of Zanzibar
Post by namelessfly   » Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:57 pm

namelessfly

The name implies a colony founded by Muslims that has an Islamic, theocratic government. The implications for the status of women seem comparable to Grayson or Masada. While the question of Grayson's religious beliefs and social customs are repeatedly addressed, we don't seem to get much insight into Zanzibar.

Has Islam on Zanzibar reformed so that these issues are not relevant or is the overt sexism simply accepted by Manticore because they need the ally?
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Re: Caliphate of Zanzibar
Post by Donnachaidh   » Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:37 pm

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Some cursory research would show you that sexism is no more inherent in Islam than in Christianity or Judaism. It's a cultural/societal norm thing, not a specific tenet of either faith.

namelessfly wrote:The name implies a colony founded by Muslims that has an Islamic, theocratic government. The implications for the status of women seem comparable to Grayson or Masada. While the question of Grayson's religious beliefs and social customs are repeatedly addressed, we don't seem to get much insight into Zanzibar.

Has Islam on Zanzibar reformed so that these issues are not relevant or is the overt sexism simply accepted by Manticore because they need the ally?


Edited for spelling
Last edited by Donnachaidh on Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Caliphate of Zanzibar
Post by roseandheather   » Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:52 pm

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Donnachaidh wrote:Some cursory research would show you that sexism is no more inherent in Islam than in Christianity or Judaism. It's a cultural/societal norm thing, not a specific tenant of either faith.



I was going to say something cross but then Donnachaidh did it for me minus the rudeness and swearing.

(Pssst. 'Tenant' is a renter of an abode. 'Tenet' is an article of faith. I am telling you this because I have been there and done that and it was slightly embarrassing. :lol: )
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Re: Caliphate of Zanzibar
Post by kzt   » Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:30 am

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Donnachaidh wrote:Some cursory research would show you that sexism is no more inherent in Islam than in Christianity or Judaism. It's a cultural/societal norm thing, not a specific tenet of either faith.

So, in Christianity, the testimony of how many women do you need to equal the testimony of one man?
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Re: Caliphate of Zanzibar
Post by jgnfld   » Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:40 am

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kzt wrote:
Donnachaidh wrote:Some cursory research would show you that sexism is no more inherent in Islam than in Christianity or Judaism. It's a cultural/societal norm thing, not a specific tenet of either faith.

So, in Christianity, the testimony of how many women do you need to equal the testimony of one man?


In (Orthodox) rabbinical courts, women may not testify at all in most circumstances.
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Re: Caliphate of Zanzibar
Post by thinkstoomuch   » Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:53 am

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You mean like women not being able to read the Holy Book for a certain period every month.

Yes this was described to me by a American adherent to that faith.

If she can't read the "book" time how is she equal. This seemed to make sense to me at that time it was espoused to me Los Angeles, CA. Since then I contemplated that for about 25 years now and realized how this degrades women.

What Islamic predominated country has anything like equal opportunity for women? This is kind of a loaded question as the metrics used can be hard to quantify. I normally disagree with most of the "established" metrics. But it is a valid question as if it is a cultural thing not a tenet thing there should be an example and I am coming up blank.

A curious,
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Donnachaidh wrote:Some cursory research would show you that sexism is no more inherent in Islam than in Christianity or Judaism. It's a cultural/societal norm thing, not a specific tenet of either faith.
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Re: Caliphate of Zanzibar
Post by pokermind   » Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:03 am

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Intolerance is the problem not a specific belief system. I include non religious belief systems here as atheists can and have persecuted believers as much as the religious persecute atheists. I like David's take on this:

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My suggestion attack the extremists who preach intolerance not the belief system.

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Re: Caliphate of Zanzibar
Post by Michael Riddell   » Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:08 am

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Why do I get the impression this thread could go downhill fast?

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Re: Caliphate of Zanzibar
Post by Whitecold   » Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:27 am

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namelessfly wrote:The name implies a colony founded by Muslims that has an Islamic, theocratic government. The implications for the status of women seem comparable to Grayson or Masada. While the question of Grayson's religious beliefs and social customs are repeatedly addressed, we don't seem to get much insight into Zanzibar.

Has Islam on Zanzibar reformed so that these issues are not relevant or is the overt sexism simply accepted by Manticore because they need the ally?


I would disagree that caliphate automatically implies that it was founded as Islamic theocracy. I don't know when Zazibar's colonists departed, but it might well be with hundreds of years of official, legal equality on Earth.
By then picking caliphate means no more than Manticore picking a kingdom respectively empire as name for their state form, or Gustav Anderman taking a liking for Prussia.
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Re: Caliphate of Zanzibar
Post by MAD-4A   » Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:43 am

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Donnachaidh wrote:Some cursory research would show you that sexism is no more inherent in Islam than in Christianity or Judaism. It's a cultural/societal norm thing, not a specific tenet of either faith.

While it is true under strict reading of both Christianity and Judaism women are relegated to a secondary/subservient role in the household, they are still recognized as humans with human rights and can be independent if not married. When married the husband is strictly speaking the “head of the household” and the wife is subordinate to him. In Islamic “sharia law” women aren’t recognized as “people” they are literally 1 step up from cattle and can be beaten & even killed by the man over them, husband if married, father if not. Women do not have the same rights in Islam than they do in either the Christian of Jewish religion. This can be most effectively seen in the fact that even in non-sharia Muslim states, a woman can be stoned for setting foot outside her house without being wrapped head to toe. To change this to a point of equality, would be to make it no longer Islam, as the foundation of this attitude is from Mohamad (who was an extreme sexist) directly. And would undermine all of the other writings from him as well. But that would put it into the category of the “Church of Humanity Unchained” as in Grason. The primary sexism in Grason doesn’t come from their Christian roots but from the genetic accident of the planets early colonization resulting in so few viable male children (which I double is the case for Zanzibar).
Last edited by MAD-4A on Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:48 am, edited 3 times in total.
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