What I don't like

Hans wrote:Hello, ok, first, I've read all but the Stephanie Harrington Books.
That D.W. not mentions LBGT is something I count on the positve side.

Yow wrote: I've served with many gay and lesbian service members during the don't ask don't tell era. We all knew who they were and they were good at their job and patriotic. I've been very proud and privileged to have served with them.

Hans wrote:This statement says exactly how we all should think about this
ok, personally I don't like patriotism, because it's blinding ourselfs - but again, that's another discussion).

patriots that don't look, measure and weigh the cost and know who they are are not patriots but sheep. Every nation and people have their patriots and not all carry a gun like myself.

Hans wrote:The names:
There is Theismann, Henke....
On the other side Detweiler, Ottweiler, Asimonova, Kolkotsov.....
But it was just a feeling.
And when I read the name of the slavers station, which is Hungarian and the slavers names, which are mostly East European names, I had a bit a sour feeling bout this.

Ahhhhh. Yes. Now, tell me their first names.

Well, hans, you probably won't like Shadow of Freedom, as I appears the MWW emptied out Ireland and Scotland to populate that book (I mean, the number of "Mc" and "Mac" in those books was...interesting.

I think DW does try (at least he's made a number of obviously Arabic characters, and even made one a 'good guy' (the SLN analyst). It's just not as easy as it looks, especially given the number of named characters in his storeis.

As for the 'gay' question, yes, it shouldn't matter (and given that Weber, like Asimov, does not do romance/sex all that well, IMHO), but unfortunatley in this world it still does and people are still persecuted over it (not so much in the West anymore, but elesewhere...). So there is a sensitivity if an author seems to be "discriminating".

Actually, I don't think DW does disciminate, at least consciously. There has been one 'bad' gay character (Coulter in Honor Against Enemies") and one 'good' one (Havliceck in Crown of Slaves) and WoG is that Admiral Sarnow has a husband instead of a wife, but I really think DW prefers not to write about people's relationships unless it directly impacts the stories--and that's been mostly Honor and her immediatle family(ies).

IMHO as always--YMMV.

I am not Hans but anything dragged too far is a bad thing!

If you allow whatever cause to supplant thinking then it is going to be a bad thing. Doesn't matter what the issue is.

Not that thinking too much doesn't have its own share of pitfalls and lack of rationality (to others) myself included.

History is full of examples of all of it in my opinion.

Have wonderful week,
T2M

PS should be in one of the quote threads but I can't remember where I read it, "Everybody acts rationally to their own logic. Others just don't use that logic." Or some such. Must have been in an old science fiction book.

Daryl wrote:"That D.W. not mentions LBGT is something I count on the positve side." why Hans?

"personally I don't like patriotism, because it's blinding ourselves" how Hans?

i don't read a story for my own enjoyment and entertainment in order to inundate myself with whatever activist issue is the fad of the day. why should an author have to bend his story to fit your sad version of affirmative action? what, is a writer supposed to decide each character's race based on some kind of percentage chart to be fair to your sensibilities?

grow up. it's like you started reading the books through this lense of preconceived inequity and because the author didn't write enough major characters as the same race/gender/sexuality/political view as you, you're offended. you're an insult to minorities all over the world who live with REAL inequality.

savadrin wrote:i don't read a story for my own enjoyment and entertainment in order to inundate myself with whatever activist issue is the fad of the day. why should an author have to bend his story to fit your sad version of affirmative action? what, is a writer supposed to decide each character's race based on some kind of percentage chart to be fair to your sensibilities?

grow up. it's like you started reading the books through this lense of preconceived inequity and because the author didn't write enough major characters as the same race/gender/sexuality/political view as you, you're offended. you're an insult to minorities all over the world who live with REAL inequality.

Amen. I'm getting to be an old duffer and am weary of being slapped in the face by "politically correct" every time I hear the news. I know the issues are out there and don't like discrimination, but I read fiction to get away from such discussions, not indulge in them.

Don

What books were you reading???? Honors ½ Asian, her mother is Asian (along with her family on Beowulf) and the Queen/Empress as well as Honors best friend/co-Admiral/co-hero (Mike) are black (African…duh) (not to mention Thandi Palane). There’s a whole star system named “Zanzibar”! Last I heard they were with the “good guys”. Also there are few “good guys” or “bad guys” just like real life, most of the people are just trying to get by, not “good or bad” in their own minds – just from the point of view of those who oppose them. The Mesan Alignment are “good guys” from their point of view & Beowulf is "bad" trying to stop "human progress". Most of the names I read I have to change in my head cause I don’t know how they’re supposed to be pronounced. Maybe you need glasses or stop with you over inflated political correctness - what irks me is that your prejudice against white/English!

savadrin wrote:i don't read a story for my own enjoyment and entertainment in order to inundate myself with whatever activist issue is the fad of the day. why should an author have to bend his story to fit your sad version of affirmative action? what, is a writer supposed to decide each character's race based on some kind of percentage chart to be fair to your sensibilities?

grow up. it's like you started reading the books through this lense of preconceived inequity and because the author didn't write enough major characters as the same race/gender/sexuality/political view as you, you're offended. you're an insult to minorities all over the world who live with REAL inequality.

thank you1

Personally, I like to think that RFC is avoiding what could become some potentially offensive stereotypes. He touches upon the issues of race, polygamy, slavery, augmentation, sexism, genetic engineering, etc., but only where it applies to the story and moves it forward. I think it was ToF where W.E.B. was discussing discrimination and most of his Manticoran audience were appalled at the concept. In HoQ, even Honor had issues coming to grips with the Grayson's overt sexism.

The subject matter is there, but done in what I consider a more tasteful way than would be the case of the introduction of a character like Rue Paul who would only reinforce a very offensive stereotype. I feel like the Honorverse is past those particular issues...

n7axw wrote:

savadrin wrote:i don't read a story for my own enjoyment and entertainment in order to inundate myself with whatever activist issue is the fad of the day. why should an author have to bend his story to fit your sad version of affirmative action? what, is a writer supposed to decide each character's race based on some kind of percentage chart to be fair to your sensibilities?

grow up. it's like you started reading the books through this lense of preconceived inequity and because the author didn't write enough major characters as the same race/gender/sexuality/political view as you, you're offended. you're an insult to minorities all over the world who live with REAL inequality.

Amen. I'm getting to be an old duffer and am weary of being slapped in the face by "politically correct" every time I hear the news. I know the issues are out there and don't like discrimination, but I read fiction to get away from such discussions, not indulge in them.

Don

Well, since I'm completing my 61st revolution of the sun this week, I guess I qualify as an 'old duffer'....

I don't expect the MWW to be 'politically correct' (heck, if I wanted politically correct/incorrect I'd read David Drake's stuff... .

However, I do expect my writers to be cognizant of what is going on in the world, both politically and socially-economically and have the ability to extrapolate it into a believable future.

Which I think, to a great extent, David Weber does.

But don't give me that 'I don't want to hear about real-life stuff" line--real life is the basis of building a future history that one can readily believe in....

IMHO as always. YMMV.

Hutch wrote:Well, since I'm completing my 61st revolution of the sun this week, I guess I qualify as an 'old duffer'....

I don't expect the MWW to be 'politically correct' (heck, if I wanted politically correct/incorrect I'd read David Drake's stuff... .

However, I do expect my writers to be cognizant of what is going on in the world, both politically and socially-economically and have the ability to extrapolate it into a believable future.

Which I think, to a great extent, David Weber does.

But don't give me that 'I don't want to hear about real-life stuff" line--real life is the basis of building a future history that one can readily believe in....

IMHO as always. YMMV.

Well said.

And to everyone, my comment wasn't meant as a critcism of David's writing or that I miss me some sexy gay action in the novels. Not at all. Hutch's comment really gets closest to what I actually meant; David has created a complex vision of the future that examines social shifts and changes in a diversified mega-society, and I'm pretty sure LGBT people (I don't consider equal rights for this group of fellow human beings, or the acknowledging of their existence, a "fad") would be a part of that.

Again, I don't need gay sex scenes in my military science fiction, just as I don't need hetero sex scenes in it. But would it really hurt to have a reference to some male officer's husband or a female politician's wife in there? Or a mention that it's just one more thing conservative 'lost colonies' like Grayson or Masada will have to learn to deal with?

It's not something I have a major problem with, it just came to my mind when Hans (Kraut greetings from Bremen, btw ^^) mentioned the name thing. And it's not an Honorverse thing either, check out how many gay characters there have been in the entire oh-so-liberal Star Trek franchise.