SPOILER - How is the GA going to discover Darius or Felix?

kzt wrote:

n7axw wrote:It depends on how heavily wormhole is fortified. With Manticorian junction you are correct. With Torch Harvest Joy got taken out by BCs. A squadron of Nikes mass transited would make mincemeat of the bad guys on the other end. But of course, the Manties don't know that...

No, they would get shot to pieces by 200+ grasers while having no sidewalls. Note that the sensors of the Harvest Joy were just beginning to resolve the situation when it blowed up. This, plus no sidewalls, really limits your ability to be anything other then a target. This assumes the MAN didn't also drop a few thousand mines.[/quote

For years Manticore worried about a mass transit from Trevor's Star. That was why the junction forts were built to start with. Further, they were placed outside the terminus far enough to give them a chance to react to surprise because in the event of an an attack the attacker has the advantage of the defense not knowing when the event is coming.

Why are you taking about 200+ grasers? Honest question by the way. I know of no text evidence to support it. As for the mines could they be emplaced near enough to the terminus to make them difficult to avoid? Again, I don't know.

As for Harvest Joy, she was an unarmed survey ship not expecting trouble. IIRC she was taken out by a single BC. I am proposing a squadron of Nikes mass transited and expecting trouble which would be a very different proposition.

Should this be done? I don't know. I am visualizing how I would go about it rather than advocating a course of action. I suspect that MAlign defenses haven't been upgraded strongly, but I don't know that. I suppose that what it comes down to is how important the GA thinks it is to know what's on the other side and what kind of a risk they are willing to take to get it.

What they should be doing is providing a strong defense of Torch against whatever lies on the other side. It would be a pity for Torch to be destroyed and the MAlign have free access to the Haven Quadrant becase that little detail wasn't tended to.

Don

n7axw wrote:Why are you taking about 200+ grasers? Honest question by the way. I know of no text evidence to support it. As for the mines could they be emplaced near enough to the terminus to make them difficult to avoid? Again, I don't know.

As for Harvest Joy, she was an unarmed survey ship not expecting trouble. IIRC she was taken out by a single BC. I am proposing a squadron of Nikes mass transited and expecting trouble which would be a very different proposition.

I believe it was an entire BC squadron. So that would be only 96 grasers, I miss-remembered the armament of a Nevada. Plus this would be deep inside SDM range.

It really doesn't matter how prepared for trouble you are when you charge through the door and find 20 feet away a 55 gallon drum of napalm with a claymore mine behind it. It's just going to be a bad day.

kzt wrote:

n7axw wrote:Why are you taking about 200+ grasers? Honest question by the way. I know of no text evidence to support it. As for the mines could they be emplaced near enough to the terminus to make them difficult to avoid? Again, I don't know.

As for Harvest Joy, she was an unarmed survey ship not expecting trouble. IIRC she was taken out by a single BC. I am proposing a squadron of Nikes mass transited and expecting trouble which would be a very different proposition.

I believe it was an entire BC squadron. So that would be only 96 grasers, I miss-remembered the armament of a Nevada. Plus this would be deep inside SDM range.

From Torch of Freedom, ch.27:

"Two unknown starships, bearing zero-zero-five by zero-seven-niner, range one-zero-three thous—"
Twelve battlecruiser-grade grasers, fired at a range of just over a third of a light-second, arrived before he could complete his final sentence, and HMS Harvest Joy, Josepha Zachary, and every man and woman aboard her ship disappeared in a single cataclysmic ball of incandescent fury.

And ch.50:

—and Ganneau had an entire battlecruiser squadron sitting there, with two of them already at action stations and knowing exactly where anything from the other end had to come out.

Bill Woods wrote:From Torch of Freedom, ch.27:

"Two unknown starships, bearing zero-zero-five by zero-seven-niner, range one-zero-three thous—"
Twelve battlecruiser-grade grasers, fired at a range of just over a third of a light-second, arrived before he could complete his final sentence, and HMS Harvest Joy, Josepha Zachary, and every man and woman aboard her ship disappeared in a single cataclysmic ball of incandescent fury.

And ch.50:

—and Ganneau had an entire battlecruiser squadron sitting there, with two of them already at action stations and knowing exactly where anything from the other end had to come out.

It would seem that the GA would have to be expecting trouble if they were to send any more ships through after Harvest Joy. I guess we don't know what the mass ceiling is for the Torch wormhole, do we? Perhaps the GA could send a lot of SDs through at once to overwhelm the BCs at the other end? Again, this is all speculative as the GA doesn't seem to even be looking in the Torch wormhole's direction nor do they have any reason to believe that the survey ship was destroyed by hostiles instead of just running afoul of some wormhole-related problem.

n7axw wrote:For years Manticore worried about a mass transit from Trevor's Star. That was why the junction forts were built to start with. Further, they were placed outside the terminus far enough to give them a chance to react to surprise because in the event of an an attack the attacker has the advantage of the defense not knowing when the event is coming.

First RFC has said that Manticore was underestimating the lethality if their own defenses in the laser-head era.

But probably more importantly they were concerned that Haven would be crazy or desperate enough to throw away their obsolescent Battleships in a suicidal mass assault. Throw the transit tonnage limit of BBs down one, or worse two, termini in simultaneous transits and even if the defenses obliterate 60-80% of them there are so many that enough are likely to clear the zone; bring up wedges, sidewalls, and start launching missiles of their own against the defending forts. But everyone knew that would be a very high cost mission; and one that could only work by saturating the defenders.

Hardly the way the GA would want to take a wormhole.

Amaroq wrote:It would seem that the GA would have to be expecting trouble if they were to send any more ships through after Harvest Joy. I guess we don't know what the mass ceiling is for the Torch wormhole, do we? Perhaps the GA could send a lot of SDs through at once to overwhelm the BCs at the other end? Again, this is all speculative as the GA doesn't seem to even be looking in the Torch wormhole's direction nor do they have any reason to believe that the survey ship was destroyed by hostiles instead of just running afoul of some wormhole-related problem.

How big a crew do you need on board to send a ship through a wormhole? Because if you could do it by remote control or with a small group in the most heavily armored section of the ship.... Send a bunch of obsolete (SLN-surplus!) SDs through, escorted by another bunch of state-of-the-art cruisers. Even if some of the SDs fail to make the jump, the rest'll give the defenders something to shoot at while the cruisers bring up their weapons and defenses.

But the immediate need is to secure the Visigoth terminus, preferably just after the estimated date that Henke takes the Mesa terminus.

Jonathan_S wrote:

n7axw wrote:For years Manticore worried about a mass transit from Trevor's Star. That was why the junction forts were built to start with. Further, they were placed outside the terminus far enough to give them a chance to react to surprise because in the event of an an attack the attacker has the advantage of the defense not knowing when the event is coming.

First RFC has said that Manticore was underestimating the lethality if their own defenses in the laser-head era.

But probably more importantly they were concerned that Haven would be crazy or desperate enough to throw away their obsolescent Battleships in a suicidal mass assault. Throw the transit tonnage limit of BBs down one, or worse two, termini in simultaneous transits and even if the defenses obliterate 60-80% of them there are so many that enough are likely to clear the zone; bring up wedges, sidewalls, and start launching missiles of their own against the defending forts. But everyone knew that would be a very high cost mission; and one that could only work by saturating the defenders.

Hardly the way the GA would want to take a wormhole.

Also, Manticore was never scared of the first wave getting through their defenses - they were worried about MULTIPLE waves hitting the defenses before the minefields could be replaced and the damage which was done to the inner defenses repaired. The nightmare senario was multiple termini in enemy hands - allowing 2x invasion strength senarios or waves in 1/2 the time planned for. Haven's massive # of "disposable" Battleships were the perfect tool to drag down Manticore's defensive strength without effecting the PRH's true fighting ability.

In the case of Torch, WE know there are no permanent defenses, but the GA does not. If the same 8 BCs were stationed at the terminus, 2 squadrons of old SDs could break through. However,if the Malign gets wind of the transit attack, they could easily position multiple squadrons of Mannerheim DNs to cover the terminus, stopping any GA assault force.

Theemile wrote:In the case of Torch, WE know there are no permanent defenses, but the GA does not. If the same 8 BCs were stationed at the terminus, 2 squadrons of old SDs could break through. However,if the Malign gets wind of the transit attack, they could easily position multiple squadrons of Mannerheim DNs to cover the terminus, stopping any GA assault force.

It's actually pretty absurd not to have at least a minefield covering the terminus. Given that they suspect that Manpower knew about the terminus and the mysterious loss of their survey ship I'd put a minefield in, with some sort of automated warning to not maneuver before the minefield will attack.

A great series of posts, guys. Thanks in particular for refreshing my memory on the Harvest Joy incident.

I think my point about heavier defenses for Torch still stands, however.

Otherwise, (tongue in cheek) I guess what we need is to import a shipment of Admiral Murakuma's warp capable observation drones! VBG

Don

kzt wrote:Same way the RMN found bolthole.

Which they didnt...

n7axw wrote:It depends on how heavily wormhole is fortified. With Manticorian junction you are correct. With Torch Harvest Joy got taken out by BCs. A squadron of Nikes mass transited would make mincemeat of the bad guys on the other end. But of course, the Manties don't know that...

Don

Nike´s die, end of story. Bummer.

Ships comes out of wormholes without wedges, CMs, no sidewalls, sensors takes time to figure out what´s up and down again while coming out, it´s turkey shoot for defending forces.

Defending forces around wormholes are there as much to make sure enemy forces doesn´t capture them by going the long route.

For years Manticore worried about a mass transit from Trevor's Star. That was why the junction forts were built to start with. Further, they were placed outside the terminus far enough to give them a chance to react to surprise because in the event of an an attack the attacker has the advantage of the defense not knowing when the event is coming.

Manticore´s economy is based on the junction traffic. They simply CANNOT allow even a single instance of "oops", which destroys a merchant or non-hostile ship.
That adds a forced delay in the defence that can be exploited.

And since Haven were behaving crazy, they might think that loosing a hundred million tons ( or 3 ) of ships before some survive passing through is worth it.

Trying to go through a wormhole with an unknown/unsecured other end is effectively suicidal.
(especially since wormholes as far as is known, CAN be "dead ends", emphasis on "dead")

As for the mines could they be emplaced near enough to the terminus to make them difficult to avoid? Again, I don't know.

By all evidence, easily close enough yes.

As for Harvest Joy, she was an unarmed survey ship not expecting trouble. IIRC she was taken out by a single BC.

And an SD expecting all the trouble in the world would have died almost as quickly.
The armour would simply mean that it wouldn´t go supernova right away.

I suppose that what it comes down to is how important the GA thinks it is to know what's on the other side and what kind of a risk they are willing to take to get it.

Well there´s your problem. GA have no reason to believe that the other side of the wormhole has any interest to them.
As far as they know, the other side opens in the middle of a star. Or the wormhole could even be impossible to transit through.

Noone ever came out of it from the other side anyway, and with the economic bonus they are, anyone on the other side SHOULD want to try.

What they should be doing is providing a strong defense of Torch against whatever lies on the other side.

Why? They´re not reading the HH books, they´re living them, they do not have inside information.

Theemile wrote:In the case of Torch, WE know there are no permanent defenses, but the GA does not. If the same 8 BCs were stationed at the terminus, 2 squadrons of old SDs could break through. However,if the Malign gets wind of the transit attack, they could easily position multiple squadrons of Mannerheim DNs to cover the terminus, stopping any GA assault force.

You would probably need a lot more than 2 squadrons of SDs. Without either sidewalls or wedges, even BC size grasers are going to shred SDs VERY quickly.
And they´re also going to HIT, all the time, every shot, because there´s nothing in the way to distort sensorfeeds any more than the energy itself.