Mainline vs 'Side Stories'

Hellmer wrote:

kzt wrote:There are some really irritating elements in those books. The most recent book has enormous continuity errors and long meandering passages to nowhere, but even the first book was really kind of annoying.

Agreed. That, and it's just so detached from the larger story being told. It's theoretically interesting, but the characters aren't really interesting enough to drive it on their own.

I loved SoSag. CoS, was pretty good as well along with ToF. For both you had to have read the Service of the Sword first to truly enjoy the books and understand them along with Changer of worlds and uh um, forgetting one other. Otherwise, the foundation for those beginning two books is really not set in the readers mind.

The problem is that none of the side line books after the initial installments had much extended character development(Slaves books this is not true). Or worse, were developed and then NOTHING happened from their POV for the rest of the book(s). Or they are given a partial chapter to get you engaged into the book again and then abruptly vanish into the nether making some of the books VERY disjointed. Made worse by copying whole chapters into multiple books.

Instead a million other folks will likewise be "described" ad nauseum, who all quickly vanish as footnotes. Hello! NoBODY CARES. Likewise the last 1/3rd of CoG, or should I say truncation? It was pretty good up to that point and I was really jonsing for a good ending and then.... BLAH PHHTTTTTTTTTT... Pretty much the entire book of SoF was this way(still have not bought it and do not think I ever will) 1st in line at the Library-->phew

I am praying that now all 3 series have converged, we get focus, creating jewels for books once more.

Still my favorite author, but man these last few have been really hard to say they were anything but hastily collated, unfinished, with some wonderful chapters followed by multiple chapters of nothing but silhouettes. Great plot architecture, but completely lacking in focus.

Something happened during the long delay after AAC, it's like David got all of these ideas that he had to create all of these novels to cover them. Turned out to be a big mistake IMHO. The ONLY "side story" series should have been the "Slaves" one. The rest of the stuff could have been folded into the "mainline" novels or be made into a novella in one of the anthologies...or just dumped period. Yeah, I liked SoS too, but that could have been masde the next mainline novel after AAC. Even better, parts could have been split off into AAC, and the rest combined with what turned out to be SFTS, MoH, ART and SoF after some serious editing, and THAT could have been the next mainline novel after AAC. It would have jumped the timeline forward too, just like with the early books. By now we could already have been in a post-SL breakup period, with the nest books taking place five or ten or even more years after that.

61Cygni wrote:Something happened during the long delay after AAC, it's like David got all of these ideas that he had to create all of these novels to cover them. Turned out to be a big mistake IMHO. The ONLY "side story" series should have been the "Slaves" one. The rest of the stuff could have been folded into the "mainline" novels or be made into a novella in one of the anthologies...or just dumped period. Yeah, I liked SoS too, but that could have been masde the next mainline novel after AAC. Even better, parts could have been split off into AAC, and the rest combined with what turned out to be SFTS, MoH, ART and SoF after some serious editing, and THAT could have been the next mainline novel after AAC. It would have jumped the timeline forward too, just like with the early books. By now we could already have been in a post-SL breakup period, with the nest books taking place five or ten or even more years after that.

I thought that what happened was fairly well known. The original plan was for Honor to die at the Battle of Manticore and then for Part II to start a generation later with her children. When Eric Flint joined as a collaborator, Part II got brought forward. What you're seeing is the end of Part I - the resolution of the Manticore-Haven war, plus stuff from Part II - the breakup of the Solarian League, plus the Mesan Alignment plot, all crammed into one timeframe. As well as some side stories crammed into the novels because a lot of the fan base wants to see space battles, and there aren't a lot of those that are central to the plot right now.

I think the series would have been a lot more coherent if RFC had been able to stick to the original plan.

Now that we've concluded the Manticore-Haven war and the Torch series is ended, I think the remainder will get a bit more focus. At least, I hope so.

Personally, I like the way the series is coming, but then, I'm used to situations where I have to keep track of multiple different threads that sort of interact.

Honor not dying is doesn't really explain all of the repetitious novels that have slowed the story to a crawl. If she had died, the story would have then jumped forward to where her now-grown up kids are leading the fight against Mesa. She of course disn't, but that shouldn't have changed the timeline that much. It certainly doesn't call for showing seemingly EVERY staff meeting on Manticore, Haven, Mesa and the SL in minute detail. Sheesh, the books SFtS, MoH, ART and SoF could all have been boiled down into ONE book, about the fall of the SL and the rise of the GA, and should have gotten us to a post-breakup SL. But no, David got "Excessive Word Syndrome" and has reached a point where no one at Baen has the guts to EDIT him anymore.

Yup, I'm hoping too that the next book finally get the story moving again. It had better be about the last days of the SL, not just more staff meetings of the Mandarins and MAlign who just plot and plot but not DO anything.

Sheesh, the books SFtS, MoH, ART and SoF could all have been boiled down into ONE book

Not one, but probably 2.

61Cygni wrote: But no, David got "Excessive Word Syndrome" and has reached a point where no one at Baen has the guts to EDIT him anymore.

Don't you mean he cast 'Protection from Editors'? He is the Mad Wizard Weber, after all.

It's not the first time. AAC was in desperate need of editing. My understanding is the problem is time. Editing takes time, both the editors and the authors. David has a limited amount of time to spend on a given book before the next one is due. So do you want a better edited/revised book next year or the year after, or what you have right now?

I find it hard to understand the angst expressed here. That's because I LIKE long books with plenty of exposition and explanation. RFC gives us both and the insights he provides into the thinking of characters is what makes the stories so good. If I wanted short books with continual battles and nothing but exploding starships I'd be looking at juvenile fiction for it, for instance a written version of the dreadful Starship Troopers film.

Cheers

John

John Prigent wrote:I find it hard to understand the angst expressed here. That's because I LIKE long books with plenty of exposition and explanation. RFC gives us both and the insights he provides into the thinking of characters is what makes the stories so good. If I wanted short books with continual battles and nothing but exploding starships I'd be looking at juvenile fiction for it, for instance a written version of the dreadful Starship Troopers film.

Cheers

John

I love long books.

I love the backstory.

I like Wheel of Time, Sword of Truth, Otherworld, Dragonbone chair, Sand Wars, etc.

I hate card board cut outs that are only there so we get to learn that they get waxed in half a chapter. No one cares about a card board cut out. NO ONE. Not even the author.

The last 1/3rd of CoG is excruciatingly bad. All Point of View from characters we care NOTHING for. No empathy. He had characters that WERE developed for the last several books, sitting there, doing absolutely NOTHING. Uh Hem, Yana for instance. Going farther in explanation would be a spoiler so I will stop.

Up thread I stated I loved SoSag? Right? Even though it was long, pretty much the majority of every new character in said book had to be there to get the main point across. Could it have been trimmed some? Yea. Could several of those new characters been eliminated, but had the same point come across from the core group of new characters aboard the Hexapuma while retaining the length? Yes, and by doing so would have made the book far more likeable as well.

It is called empathy. DW has gotten away from empathatic writing. These new books are reading like a History book or the evening news.

I have no problem with the length of CoG. I highly doubt many others on this forum do either. What we are B****ing about is DW's new writing style. It sucks with a side helping of his old flare.

wastedfly wrote:

John Prigent wrote:I find it hard to understand the angst expressed here. That's because I LIKE long books with plenty of exposition and explanation. RFC gives us both and the insights he provides into the thinking of characters is what makes the stories so good. If I wanted short books with continual battles and nothing but exploding starships I'd be looking at juvenile fiction for it, for instance a written version of the dreadful Starship Troopers film.

Cheers

John

I love long books.

I love the backstory.

I like Wheel of Time, Sword of Truth, Otherworld, Dragonbone chair, Sand Wars, etc.

I hate card board cut outs that are only there so we get to learn that they get waxed in half a chapter. No one cares about a card board cut out. NO ONE. Not even the author.

The last 1/3rd of CoG is excruciatingly bad. All Point of View from characters we care NOTHING for. No empathy. He had characters that WERE developed for the last several books, sitting there, doing absolutely NOTHING. Uh Hem, Yana for instance. Going farther in explanation would be a spoiler so I will stop.

Up thread I stated I loved SoSag? Right? Even though it was long, pretty much the majority of every new character in said book had to be there to get the main point across. Could it have been trimmed some? Yea. Could several of those new characters been eliminated, but had the same point come across from the core group of new characters aboard the Hexapuma while retaining the length? Yes, and by doing so would have made the book far more likeable as well.

It is called empathy. DW has gotten away from empathatic writing. These new books are reading like a History book or the evening news.

I have no problem with the length of CoG. I highly doubt many others on this forum do either. What we are B****ing about is DW's new writing style. It sucks with a side helping of his old flare.

That was Eric Flint, not DW. If you go back into the archives, when DW had just released ART, he was musing on whether SoF or CoG would be next, which implies CoG was almost ready to be released at that time. Then Eric Flint spent last summer apparently rewriting CoG.

Something happened.

My impression, for better or worse, is that they just wanted to get the ***** thing out so they could move on. So they borrowed a lick from Tolkein with the two towers. **** happens.