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Detweiler Vision vs Beowulf Code: "Right" and "Wrong"

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Re: Detweiler Vision vs Beowulf Code: "Right" and "Wrong"
Post by cthia   » Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:56 am

cthia
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robertamgottlieb wrote:
cthia wrote:I am not quite so sure that this is a question of morality. Or at least if it were, that ship has sailed.

My personal slant on regeneration. If I were a high-powered high falutin lawyer like, SWM, I would argue that regen does not, in any way compromise Beowulf's stance. Regen does not replace anything in or on the body that isn't already there. In fact, regen is nothing more than a highly skilled surgeon in a bottle, with bandaids.

If I lose a finger today, as long as I put that finger on ice and get it to a proper surgeon, it can be reattached. Giving me no more than I had before said accident. Regen, arguably, is just a high-tech scalpel and sutures. IMHO.

However, if that cure for the Heyerdahl mod exists outside the approved gene sequence, then that presents a problem. If you make a stance then you must be aware that if you step outside of your own parameters then you establish a precedent, eliminating your argument against, thereby opening the door. In that case Beowulf would have transformed their nonarbitrary limit to an arbitrary one, thus killing all that they stood for, by providing an exploitable legal and logical loophole.

It's akin to the SLN saying 'do as I say, not as I do.'

I think you miss my point. I wasn't talking about whether genetic mods for prolog are acceptable under the Beowulf code, but rather it is moral or not to use knowledge acquired through such an evil basis.

There was, IIRC, some valuable medical research on hypothermia acquired from experiments (i.e., scientific torture) on prisoners at Auschwitz. That was the first time I encountered this issue: what do you do with useful medical knowledge acquired from an atrocity? And I certainly consider the entire enterprise of genetic slavery as a way to acquire detailed knowledge of human genetics an atrocity.

-- Bob G


No, I didn't miss your point. I simply thought that my response inferred my take on that. I apologize, and should have responded directly. I'll respond in general.

In cases where scientific breakthroughs were received through atrocious means, should said breakthroughs be discarded? Absolutely not! To ignore worthwhile breakthroughs just because they were come by in less than savory means would represent at least as big an atrocity, in some respects. If certain atrocities were visited upon Auschwitz -#28578 then discarding the valuable medical information would kill #28578 twice. Would visit another atrocity upon #28578. I would personally not eliminate a chance for said victim's sufferings to not have been all for naught. The problem comes if this would be an encouragement for said atrocities to continue.

This reminds me of similar arguments here on Earth. [1]Blood diamonds. [2]Blood money. [3]Fur.

.
Last edited by cthia on Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Detweiler Vision vs Beowulf Code: "Right" and "Wrong"
Post by SWM   » Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:08 am

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Dca wrote:I thought it was Meyerdahl, but ... Do we have textev of Alfred regenerating or not? I don't recall the failure to take regen being intrinsic to that mod, but it could just be me.

I think you're right; Honor's problem with regeneration is probably not linked to the Meyerdahl mods.
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Re: Detweiler Vision vs Beowulf Code: "Right" and "Wrong"
Post by Hutch   » Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:32 am

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robertamgottlieb wrote:
Dca wrote:I thought it was Meyerdahl, but ... Do we have textev of Alfred regenerating or not? I don't recall the failure to take regen being intrinsic to that mod, but it could just be me.

Heyerdahl vs Meyerbdahl - I blame the iPhone auto-spell correct. Sorry.

-- Bob G


The Heyerdahl modification encourages it's recipients to set sail on large bodies of water in primitive watercraft..... 8-) :twisted:


Sorry...carry on.
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Re: Detweiler Vision vs Beowulf Code: "Right" and "Wrong"
Post by Amaroq   » Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:43 am

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robertamgottlieb wrote:There was, IIRC, some valuable medical research on hypothermia acquired from experiments (i.e., scientific torture) on prisoners at Auschwitz. That was the first time I encountered this issue: what do you do with useful medical knowledge acquired from an atrocity? And I certainly consider the entire enterprise of genetic slavery as a way to acquire detailed knowledge of human genetics an atrocity.

-- Bob G


This is a good point. The medical experiments done on humans during WWII were atrocious and yet some useful information did come from them. Some argue that it should be used because then at least something good came from the experiments and others argue that the source automatically invalidates the information.

Another example of this was Unit 731. This was the most infamous of the Japanese human experimentation camps set up in China during WWII. The senior scientists of that camp were offered immunity by the Allies in exchange for information they generated looking at the course of infectious diseases (which were administered to unwilling human victims). It was shameful that the offer was even made and nothing ever came of the knowledge anyway but I've found that not many people know about this episode. This says to me that it is deliberately not mentioned in the history books because of the muddied morality of the issue.
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Re: Detweiler Vision vs Beowulf Code: "Right" and "Wrong"
Post by n7axw   » Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:44 am

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Yes, Alfred Harrington regenerates. Read Alison's conversation with Emily about Emiy's fear that a child of hers would not regen. I think it is in At All Costs.

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Re: Detweiler Vision vs Beowulf Code: "Right" and "Wrong"
Post by Amaroq   » Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:47 am

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SWM wrote:
Dca wrote:I thought it was Meyerdahl, but ... Do we have textev of Alfred regenerating or not? I don't recall the failure to take regen being intrinsic to that mod, but it could just be me.

I think you're right; Honor's problem with regeneration is probably not linked to the Meyerdahl mods.


From AAC:

"I made identifying the gene group which prevents her from regenerating a personal project, and I found it years ago. The problem child is a dominant, unfortunately, but it's not associated with the locked sequences of the Meyerdahl modifications-if it were, Alfred wouldn't regenerate either, and he does-so it's not automatically selected for at fertilization."


Allison explaining to Emily that her and Hamish can produce a child that will regenerate.
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Re: Detweiler Vision vs Beowulf Code: "Right" and "Wrong"
Post by HungryKing   » Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:00 pm

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Again, prolong is not a gene mod, the restrictions in the Beowolf Code do not apply. In some ways, it is probably more impressive than merely modifying the human genome, unless the human genome does not tolerate such, which it might given that the Mesans have appearantly managed only forty to eightly years beyond what the human frame should theoretically take, 160 is what most mammals with our maturation rate should be capable of living under optimal conditions,120 is generally regarded as the effective maximum that humans can live.


cthia wrote:
HungryKing wrote:People, prolong does not violate the Beowolf Code, it is not a gene mod, it is a, mostly, single generation, epigenetic change, prolong literally convinces the body not to age. This part of the reason the mesan life extention mods stack with prolong. As for fixing nonresponsiveness to regen, it is not going beyond the natural limits, and in a universe where only a minority of people do not respond, it is pretty much the definition of a disease state.


I wasn't sure whether or not prolong violated Beowulf's own code with respect to the particular gene sequence. However it is still in question whether their overall stance has been impuned. An expert Mesan legal lawyer (in the league of SWM) could eat Beowulf alive on this issue. At the very least the judge will rule on Mesa's right to a hearing on the merits of their case.
The Beowulf Life Sciences Code, which limited genetic engineering to the purpose of curing and counteracting existing conditions and discouraged the intentional "improvement" of the species...
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Re: Detweiler Vision vs Beowulf Code: "Right" and "Wrong"
Post by cthia   » Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:03 pm

cthia
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Amaroq wrote:
robertamgottlieb wrote:There was, IIRC, some valuable medical research on hypothermia acquired from experiments (i.e., scientific torture) on prisoners at Auschwitz. That was the first time I encountered this issue: what do you do with useful medical knowledge acquired from an atrocity? And I certainly consider the entire enterprise of genetic slavery as a way to acquire detailed knowledge of human genetics an atrocity.

-- Bob G


This is a good point. The medical experiments done on humans during WWII were atrocious and yet some useful information did come from them. Some argue that it should be used because then at least something good came from the experiments and others argue that the source automatically invalidates the information.

Another example of this was Unit 731. This was the most infamous of the Japanese human experimentation camps set up in China during WWII. The senior scientists of that camp were offered immunity by the Allies in exchange for information they generated looking at the course of infectious diseases (which were administered to unwilling human victims). It was shameful that the offer was even made and nothing ever came of the knowledge anyway but I've found that not many people know about this episode. This says to me that it is deliberately not mentioned in the history books because of the muddied morality of the issue.

But honestly. What do you do? Valuable information coming from these type experiments, if discarded I personally think represents reprehensible irresponsibility. Yet to use the valuable information subtly sends the message to would be social martyrs that it is worthwhile if their means justfy the ends.

What does a struggling single mother who is trying to feed fourteen kids, hers and her drug addicted two sisters, do with drug money sent to her by drug dealers in the neighborhood?

Would it be irresponsible of her to discard the money?
These kinds of morality questions can be argued both ways and I fear this to be just another 'chicken or the egg question.'

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Detweiler Vision vs Beowulf Code: "Right" and "Wrong"
Post by cthia   » Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:13 pm

cthia
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HungryKing wrote:People, prolong does not violate the Beowolf Code, it is not a gene mod, it is a, mostly, single generation, epigenetic change, prolong literally convinces the body not to age. This part of the reason the mesan life extention mods stack with prolong. As for fixing nonresponsiveness to regen, it is not going beyond the natural limits, and in a universe where only a minority of people do not respond, it is pretty much the definition of a disease state.

I didn't overlook this HungryKing. I've just been chewing on it. Thanks a lot for supplying this info. I am almost certain my stance on prolong has to change, because if the information you gave is true, then I must view prolong to be in the same category as regen. Inasmuch as it does not violate any Beowulfan code or moral stance.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Detweiler Vision vs Beowulf Code: "Right" and "Wrong"
Post by TheMonster   » Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:23 pm

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namelessfly wrote:The opening chapter of A BEAUTIFUL FRIENDSHIP alludes to the extent of genetic engineering by mentioning that Stephanie's Meyerdahl modifications are somewhat unusual because they can breed true with unmodified humans. Imagine the hostility that could evolve when such fundamental biological reality establishes divisions between peoples that can't be mellowed by gradual interbreeding.
But the Meyerdahl mod can't "be mellowed by gradual interbreeding" either. It is "locked" (DW has used the term "dominant", but that's not the right word to use in 21st Century genetic discussions; it means something very different) so that all of Stephanie's descendants have the Meyerdahl mod package.

I understand that the Winton mods are also "locked", which raises the question of what happens when a Harrington and a Winton mate. Do the offspring get both packages, or do they fight with each other, possibly resulting in such unions being infertile?

And apparently locked mods are allowed by the Beowulf Code!
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