Detweiler Vision vs Beowulf Code: "Right" and "Wrong"

runsforcelery wrote:

Amaroq wrote:
Was it Leonard Detweiler's idea to use genetic slavery has a front to distract from the real Alignment machinations, too?

No.

A short but accurate answer that triggers a dozen more questions....

Amaroq wrote:

namelessfly wrote:I am just reading THE BATTLE OF SAURON which depicts Jerry Pournelle's Sauron's aa a bit less evil than earlier works. Very thought provoking. The KE strike on Sauron raises questions about who the villains really are.

Is this part of the Tolkien universe?

No, part of the Co-Dominium future history written by Jerry Pournelle, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoDominium

Amaroq wrote:

namelessfly wrote:I am just reading THE BATTLE OF SAURON which depicts Jerry Pournelle's Sauron's aa a bit less evil than earlier works. Very thought provoking. The KE strike on Sauron raises questions about who the villains really are.

Is this part of the Tolkien universe?

No. This is part of Pournelle's CoDominio / Empire of man future history that was used in THE MOTE IN GODS EYE with Larry Niven and the WARWORLD series by Pournelle and John Carr.

The premiss is that a future human Empire is destroyed by a civil war that began with the revolt of the Sauron system, so named because of the indigenous fauna that were dinosaur analogs. Sauron was a very marginal ecology that was very challenging to colonists whose interstellar transport was to expensive and limited to enable terraforming, so they used genetic engineering to adapt themselves to their new environment. They also had a martial culture that demanded subservience to the State.

This latest book that gives the most insight into Sauron history and culture reveals that the war didn't start because the Sauron's were attempting to impose their rule on everyone else. They were simply resisting the efforts of the Human Empire to impose itswill on them.

The opening chapter of A BEAUTIFUL FRIENDSHIP alludes to the extent of genetic engineering by mentioning that Stephanie's Meyerdahl modifications are somewhat unusual because they can breed true with unmodified humans. Imagine the hostility that could evolve when such fundamental biological reality establishes divisions between peoples that can't be mellowed by gradual interbreeding.

n7axw wrote:Perhaps the trouble here is who decides what for whom. How are the lines to be drawn? When you say that "something is way over the line," whose line are you talking about? I suspect that we could probably gather a near consenses on a quite a number of improvements that would make people's lives healthier. And there are also things we could probably agree shouldn't happen.

But then there is that mucky grey area in the middle. Making people physically stronger or more intelligent sounds good until you start thinking about the social flip side. What is to prevent such people from predatory behavior toward those who haven't benefited from the improvements? Or to rephrase the question, how is the human dignity of "mere humans" protected? Or to flip the question, how is someone like Yana or Honor protected against the biases of "mere humans."

Perhaps what I am trying to say is that in our own universe, we are already struggling against racism based on such things as skin color which by way of comparsion to something like this is trivial. I'm pretty sure we don't have the maturity to handle it. In fact, I doubt that we ever will.

Don

I think the real problem or fundamental difference between the Detwieler code and the Beowulfian one has less to do with the stated goals but more to do with equality.

The Beowulfians are inclusive, everyone has equal opportunity to advance in their society. Even if they are a Mesan Genetic slave who was engeniered to be a monstourous super soldier. As long as they follow the laws as laid down by society.

The Alignment are elitest. Only the best Genetic lines are in power. To move into the upper tiers of power are impossible unless your Genes are designed as such. However your children can be modified and advanced so generationally there could be improvements. Conversley if your Genetic stock is not of an Alpha line you are lesser. Which ultemately gets back to the slavery problem, the lowest of the low. Which means that the fundamental mindst of the Alignment is such that there will always be a class system, and that the lowest class will always be nothing more than slaves.

So what happens if the Alignment wins and eventually all populations are genetically modified up to Alpha line levels of capability. Well there will still be a class system it will just be even more distorted than before, perhaps based on far more exclusive Genetic capabilities, like perhaps Telephathy.

The Alignment way of thinking also means that society as a whole has to acept that there are people who are fundamentally beter than the average person. As a result they are entitled to prevliges and power that a regular person is not.

Somehow I don't think any of the average people I've ever met would be able to accept that. Not unless there was some sort of mind control envolved.

packhunter wrote:
The Alignment way of thinking also means that society as a whole has to acept that there are people who are fundamentally beter than the average person. As a result they are entitled to prevliges and power that a regular person is not.

Somehow I don't think any of the average people I've ever met would be able to accept that. Not unless there was some sort of mind control envolved.

They do have nanotech mind control (albeit for simplistic tasks)...

What is really horrible is that perhaps you can be genetically modified to "accept" your position and never want more. You can be artificially "content" with your societal ranking. Without any tensions, there might not be any type of class warfare.

The challenge to these types of discussions, debates if you will, is to be able to argue both sides of the topic. The pro and the con.

I have stated where I stand. On the side of Beowulf. Humanity simply must consider moderation in all that it does, less it becomes our God. Too much of a good thing really is bad.

However, Beowulf's code essentially as I understand it...

The Beowulf Life Sciences Code, which limited genetic engineering to the purpose of curing and counteracting existing conditions and discouraged the intentional "improvement" of the species, originated from the planet Beowulf. It was a result of the controversy started by Leonard Detweiler and his followers, and was enforced, among others, by the Biological Survey Corps.

And if I may generally, (because of a lack of memory and access to my resident tac-witches), solicit the reference of Allison Harrington's of isolating the gene that prevents regeneration to not involve ignoring the agreed upon decree of not violating a certain gene sequence to allude to an established governor of said sciences that is neither arbitrary or capricious; then there seems to be a certain overlap. And therein may be legal grounds of Mesan arguments.

With the sole exception of prolong, every modification engineered by Beowulfan Life Sciences seem to adhere to the original goal.

The Beowulf Life Sciences Code, which limited genetic engineering to the purpose of curing and counteracting existing conditions and discouraged the intentional "improvement" of the species...

We all want to live longer and I would have camped outside of the first Facilities administering the treatments...but, are they necessary? Does the development of prolong step outside of Beowulf's own nonarbitrary stance?...even if it doesn't involve stepping outside of the governing gene sequence? Just because you can, should you?

Also, the extreme exposure to radiation may not immediately display the thrust of tainted DNA except after successive generations. The turnover rate for humans is inherently much shorter than with, say insects. Because insects are such prolific breeders, turning over generations in a relatively short time in comparison to humans, changes tend to manifest themselves fairly quickly.

This leads to my belief that certain genetic modifications should be approached on the minimal side, because of breeding interaction with other genetically enhanced humans. Blood tests seem to suddenly become crucial in the Honorverse. However, is it an exact science? Will there be unforeseen genetic mutations?

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Amaroq wrote:What is really horrible is that perhaps you can be genetically modified to "accept" your position and never want more. You can be artificially "content" with your societal ranking. Without any tensions, there might not be any type of class warfare.

That's "Brave new World" territory and doesn't work in the Honorverse (yet?). What might be possible is introducing the genetic modification for domestication but I think that goes against the grain of the Alignment.

cthia wrote:Humanity simply must consider moderation in all that it does, less it becomes our God. Too much of a good thing really is bad.

IMO on its own merits not a terribly valid reasoning. Looking from the distant past to our time we are already demigods anyway.

cthia wrote:are they necessary?

Ah the alternative to the "it's unnatural" concept appears. A lot of things are unnecessary including modern medicine in the sense that humans can do without. Few actively choose to do so for some strange reason.

cthia wrote:are they necessary?

aairfccha wrote:
Ah the alternative to the "it's unnatural" concept appears. A lot of things are unnecessary including modern medicine in the sense that humans can do without. Few actively choose to do so for some strange reason.

No. That is not what I meant. Regarding Beowulf's own stance to not exceed a certain nonarbitrary point, yet still achieve their goal, is it necessary for the development and implementation of prolong to achieve this goal? Prolong has nothing to do with the quality of life rather the quantity of life. Recognizing of course that it could be argued that quantity, applied to life, is its own quality.

I'm simply positing that the development of prolong may step outside of Beowulf's own code. Not cthia's own code.

cthia wrote:No. That is not what I meant. Regarding Beowulf's own stance to not exceed a certain nonarbitrary point, yet still achieve their goal, is it necessary for the development and implementation of prolong to achieve this goal?

First, what's this goal and second, my "can do without" probably still applies.

cthia wrote:Prolong has nothing to do with the quality of life rather the quantity of life. Recognizing of course that it could be argued that quantity, applied to life, is its own quality.

Prolong both increases length and relative proportion of the young and healthy period in life: Quality and quantity.