Hi Mwadwell,
I'm sorry, but where did you get the impression I meant to ever move so many to Silverlode or Charis?
I never gave any such figure, so your 25 million is quite a puzzle to me, let alone the rest of your argument.
Perhaps you're confusing me with PeterZ, which I'll take as a compliment, despite how often we've disagreed on threads here.
There may be secondary migration movement, but I have no intention that it be subsidized like the primary exodus.
As I stated last time, I expect the empire's own population to provide all the Silverlode colonists needed.
Among other things they can get there much more quickly, ie within 5days after its announced.
By the way, since Silverlode is more than half the size of Australia, ie its probably somewhere between 1.6-2 million square miles, while the mountainous region is only 70% larger than Texas, or just 457,000 square miles or only about a quarter of that territory.
I do expect Charis to have an 'open door', but the fact that there are already towns on Greentree Island and the Barren Lands themselves [on the online map] indicate the work of consecration has already begun, so expanding it once the war is over shouldn't be too difficult, especially with steam powered machinery to help, and if a third of the increasingly obsolete Charisian sailing ships are used for sailing freed serfs to their new homes, starting with Greentree, Westbreak and the consecrated portion of the Barren Lands, plus the ICN's steam transport ships plus dozens if not a couple hundred new built ones ordered for this crusade over the early post war years that take up the burden as the sailing ships are retired, which incidentally helps lower the price for other purchasers, then potentially 20-30 or more million ex-serfs could be delivered to their promised land(s) annually.
again, I don't expect all serfs to be bought, rather when only around 50% are left in-country, the demand for labor should improve their condition naturally.
Given how often slaves have been considered economic burdens on their societies, there will be many masters willing to sell, the primary target is Harchong, especially the northern Harchong, with the more than the rest NTM where the treatment seems the worst, and achieving societal surprise the most critical.
Reuniting the turned GHoGatA soldiers with their families would obviously be the first priority, who could easily be offered to homestead abandoned farmland in Siddarmark or the soon-to-be vacated Border States, Temple Lands etc.
Aside: Among the societal impacts to consider during the early post war era will be the millions of TL's fleeing west from Siddarmark [up to 60 million?], and the non serf populations of the Border States (~20M), Dohlar (18M), and the eastern temple lands (9M), for 107M without trying to figure how many Silkians would leave, and how many serfs would also prefer to refuse their freedom if given by heretics, etc.
Given the middle class nature of the Siddarmark refugees, as well as many of the Border States, Dohlar etc; assimilating them into Harchong or the temple lands might be very awkward as they'll expect to be treated like full citizens very quickly, which will be fun to watch.
Sodar, and Delferahk are obviously the lowest priority, though many may bought there soon anyway.
I hope this helps further explain where I think such a plan could go.
Your additional ideas will be appreciated.
L
[quote="MWadwell"]G'Day Lyonheart,
I've stated before that I find this idea unrealistic, and I still believe that.
Let's look at this again:
You're advocating the immigration of 25 million serfs over 10 years - or approximately 2% of Charis's population per year. And yet this is [b]double[/b] the US's figure - which [i]you[/i] have stated as "a remarkable figure".
And you've yet to explain how Charis is to avoid the problems of cultural assimilation, or even where these new citizens will live (as the Silverlode Island [i]isn't yet terraformed[/i]), how they will be fed (as a lot of food is required to supplement Siddarmark's lost food production), or even how they will be paid for (as the gold and silver is [i]still under the ground[/i]).
Similarly, you've yet to explain how the migrants will get from Greentree and Westbreak islands to Silverlode Island (or indeed, [i]any[/i] of the Empire of Charis's islands)- and the idea that they can be sailed over 10 000 miles from Westbreak Island to Charis in less than 6 months is ridiculous. (For example, it took the First Fleet 250 days to sail the 11 000 miles from England to Australia).
Bearing in mind that each ship is going to be able to carry ~500 passengers, you are advocating using a LOT of Charis's merchant marine to do this. (For example, the "Clyde", a 1800 ton transport ship could only carry between 600 and 700 indian indentured servants to British colonies [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clyde_(ship)[/url] - so a smaller ship (like the average 1300 ton Charisian galleon) is going to be able to carry ~500).
In fact, let's consider exactly how many ships this will require. The journey is (say) 250 days. It will take them ~30 days to load and unload at each end. Assuming that the return journey is empty (and so no lost time loading and unloading the return cargo), a round trip will take 310 days. So you should be able to fit in 1.2 trips a year from Westbreak Island to Charis. Each ship carries 500 passengers, and so will carry 600 passengers per year. And so, to transport 2 million people per year from Westbreak Island to Charis will take 3 333 galleons - or over 600 [i]more[/i] then the entire Charisian merchant marine!!!!
So while your idea sounds like a great idea, once you have a look at the cold, hard facts, it is revealed to be utterly impractical.
Later,
Matt
[quote="lyonheart"]Hi Mwadwell,
First, Liverpool is 5000 km from the US/NYC, and 1.2 million immigrants was more than 1% of the the US population at the time, a remarkable figure of acceptance for any country at any time.
Secondly, while terraforming or consecrating Silverlode Island is a noble worthy goal, I thought all my references to terraforming or consecrating the Barren Lands along with Greentree and Westbreak Islands made it clear that was the homeland I expect for the liberated serfs NTM protected by the ICN.
This was primarily to get the annual immigrant numbers up considerably, while simultaneously and serendipitously avoiding all the various cultural or societal conflicts some have brought up.
From the textev, the serfs are bought, worked and abused, families split etc; more akin to standard definitions of chattel slavery than any nonsense about fealty oaths regarding belonging to the land or owning it etc, for which there is absolutely no supporting textev in the Safehold series, so take up that definition argument with RFC.
I look forward to his response, either way.
Getting as many out as soon as possible, especially young mothers and female children which are traditionally less valued, to reduce future generational increase, is a point I forgot to mention, so kudos again to PeterZ for that addition.
The 80-120 mile distance to Greentree and Westbreak islands means they are only 1-2 days away from Howard to the current ports etc, and could absorb millions of new colonists for quite some time, perhaps preparing the way for the 'great venture' of fully terraforming all the Barren Lands for the former serfs.
Are there going to be headaches with education and crime?
Of course, but there are also going to be magnificent accomplishments that are going to make the former serfs, their children, and grandchildren proud enough to pop their buttons every time they tell their story, because no one in generations has conquered or terraformed a continent, even a small one; even if it aggregates some 3-4 or 5-6 million square miles with the other islands worth the trouble with the current tech.
That pride will be crucial in building their national identity, that inner glow that will challenge everyone in the eye not to recognise their achievement.
This will take decades, possibly a couple of centuries to fully accomplish the 'consecration', even with tech improvements possible after the war in targeted herbicides and fertilizers, NTM far larger quantities, due to better identification and research thanks to the Imperial College, but it will happen.
Regarding the numbers of immigrants possible, even sailing ships ought to make one-way trips in 6-7 days from Northern Harchong, for round trips in about ~3 5days for up to 20 round trips a year.
Granted ships need annual refits, but for such short voyages 1-2000 passengers seem possible, and the number of Charisian galleon was only 22 short of 2/3 of all Safehold Oceanic galleons (4162) according to RFC's "Raw Meat For The Speculators" post almost 2 years ago (April 12, 2012): ie 2753 versus 1409 for the rest of Safehold, not including all the galleons added from Chisholm, Emerald, Zebediah, Corisande, and Tarot when they joined the EoC, nor the dozens if not hundreds built since the war started as replacements, NTM the Charisian galleons were already 38.8% larger; averaging over 1300 tons versus the non Charisian less than 937 tons displacement, which is why Charis had 73+% of the ocean going tonnage [4.9 MT] way back then.
While the initial steam and sail KH-VII design was a battleship, freighter versions without the armor or guns are likely, a sustained speed of 15-16 mph means trips from Northern Harchong, for example, could take only 4-5 days or so for 20+ round trips each per year with several thousand passengers each time, so a 100,000 immigrant ex-serfs per such steam freighter/passenger ship per year seems possible.
I'm quite sure such freighters or passenger liners would cost far less than high endurance armored cruisers at ~500K@ C-marks, and does anyone doubt Cayleb and Sharleyan or Archbishop Maikel and the CoC would buy dozens if not hundreds for so holy a purpose?
Regarding Silverlode, I expect there are plenty of current empire citizens who are willing to get paid terraforming the island, as well as making a fortune for their families for centuries at the same time, so I have no worries there, except when there is too much competition to feed the miners etc.
L[/quote][/quote]
