Naval genies in a bottle

The E wrote:
Given the timeframe involved, it had less to do with individual brilliance, and more to do with an astonishing degree of institutional continuity. The plans themselves aren't all that complicated, anyone can think up those schemes, it's the execution over multiple generations that's the really incredible thing here.

And many through the ages HAVE thought up similar things.
The "bouncing bomb" attack against a certain dam during WWII is the same idea in another setting.

Personally, ever since i read about it, i think Rommel wins the "game" for neat though.
Attacking a companysized force with a platoon would be difficult under almost any conditions, but doing it and capturing the whole enemy force without casualties on either side, that´s freaking brilliant.

The E wrote:Basically, the Detweilers aren't bred military geniuses in my estimation. What they are is brilliant political geniuses, able to plan over timeframes far beyond a "normal" human being's planning horizon, and executing those plans without anyone noticing.

Probably.


*****

Now, I doubt that military genius is that easy to reproduce genetically, and I doubt that they have had much real success at it, if they have tried it. (Whether they believe they have had success may be a separate question.

Exactly.

Tenshinai wrote:

Can't discount Stormin' Norman's genius just because he had superior advanced air support technology. In which he used ruthlessly.

*pfftt*

There is a difference between competence and genius.
NOT exploiting your advantages would be incompetence.

I think Schwartzkopf's biggest genius move was letting everyone and his brother know he had Marines on amphibious assault ships ready to land right... well ... that was the question, wasn't it? The Iraqis had to defend the entire coast against Marine landings that ... never happened.

TheMonster wrote:I think Schwartzkopf's biggest genius move was letting everyone and his brother know he had Marines on amphibious assault ships ready to land right... well ... that was the question, wasn't it? The Iraqis had to defend the entire coast against Marine landings that ... never happened.

Now THAT part i can agree we may be starting to talk about something more than just competence.

SWM wrote:Cthia, you seem to be assuming that all members of a given line are identical, but that is not true. Different Alphas have different genetic improvements; same for Betas and Gammas. Many of them specialize in particular ways. Thus, there would be no S-line; rather, if they wanted to develop a genetic military genius (and if it were possible), it would merely be a specialization of an Alpha, or a Beta, or a Gamma line. We don't know that they haven't tried exactly that, since don't know all the specializations in those three lines.

Now, I doubt that military genius is that easy to reproduce genetically, and I doubt that they have had much real success at it, if they have tried it. (Whether they believe they have had success may be a separate question. )

Thanks for reply.

You very well may be right regarding my assuming, at least subconsciously, that all members of a given line are identical, although I cannot confirm it because truthfully I never gave it much thought. I appreciate your telling me how it actually works, however in this case the mechanics of it doesn't matter because I have assumed this gedanken experiment with a few givens: [A] that it is possible to engineer genies who demonstrate a high propensity for Naval Strategy and Tactics. [B]Advantage can be exploited from such a highly specialized and trained Navy proponent.

Actually, the information you've given seems to indicate that it is even more feasible because of a lack of any need to change out parts of the assembly line. With parts being genies, a very specialized, let's say, subgroup S, who are taught in all things Naval.

Let's bracket for a moment the idea of a genie's absolute superiority. I'm with you on that, doesn't quite hold water. It would depend on too many factors. However, I am proposing that we zero in on their natural inherent ability to grasp certain prerequisites in naval warfare. Intuitively, one aspect of this trait would be that naval genies would be a more autonomous soldier, able to think on his feet and adapt to odd situations, in a sense, and not prone to make asinine mistakes like one Elvis Santino. Although, in fairness, Santino's actions were a result of his unpreparedness and his inability to cope with the prospect of facing his peers after an inevitable ass-kicking. It was the very state of his unpreparedness that made him an idiot, same sentiment intoned in Andrea Jaruwalski's thoughts. Something that I can't conceive of happening with a naval genie. That MAW I was referring to, a certain Mental Attrition Warfare--no battles loss because of the stupidity of your officers. In this case stupidity is not to be confused with strategic or tactical stupidity, but rather plain old common stupidity--a total lack of common sense, which is what Santino exhibited. Pavel Young had a streak of the same down his back as well.

I am only proposing a West Point Naval Academy on steroids. An era and a time in the future, the Honorverse, where a mind is a terrible thing to waste has been taken to heart. What specifically comes to mind is one Honor Harrington quoting passages from General Carl von Clausewitz' On War. Ms. Harrington has always, pleased me, inasmuch as she obviously has a well rounded education; an education indicative of an established superior education system that exists in the Star Empire. The Star Kingdom has consistently flaunted and exploited the benefits of a superior educational system. I am only proposing a regime, Mesa, raising the bar. Exploiting that potentially superior aptitude, no less than what Manticore did to Haven, but on a much grander scale.

I agree that genius may not be able to be genetically produced, but certainly the potential of genius surely can be. At least you would have engineered out all of your Santinos...which is synonymous with idiots.

Tenshinai wrote:
Because their Alpha-lines and etc are too mentally inferior to realise that they´re not superior.

Ok, let's stop picking on the Alpha lines. Say what you will about them, that Aldona Anisimovna showed, IMHO, sheer and utter g-e-n-i-u-s. Even Honor herself said she'd like to meet her. Can we agree on her genius for evil machinations?

I´m amused that you label them as S-line.

Like that huh? Well I'm amused that you're amused. The S was for superior. I gather you got that. Didn't know what else to label this hypothetical genie. Like Honor, I didn't think pulling a solution out of a hat was appripriate.

And all are well trained in Old Earth's Top Gun tactics as a teether.

Top Gun wouldn´t be very relevant. Fighter combat and space naval battles, not much the same.

Well here I tend to disagree. Granted this may be built upon incorrect assumptions on my part, specifically in the area of LAC jocks. I was under the impression that LACs had pretty much the maneuverability of our own attack planes and Manticore's favorable exhange rates was not just a product of its advanced hardware but its jock's fighter capability developed by Scotty Tremaine aboard Alice Truman's Colacs.

Mesan bred astrogator genies would be able to astrogate without computers, in a pinch.

Effectively, just about anyone CAN do that, but it´s probably going to be pretty damn slow. And, humans forget stuff. Forgetting the current location of an asteroid in the wrong time and place?

Honor didn't seem to think it could be done without computer assistance.

Sun Tzu argued against attrition warfare..

Rightly so. It´s generally a waste of resources.

I was positing a slant on attrition warfare, where the resources would be your more capabable military personnel. In effect you reduce the enemy's Navy to inexperienced and clumsy officers which Haven found themselves after St Just eliminated the cream of the crop, resulting in a loss of ships.

It seems she is just as valuable there.

Easily.

In all of an officer's training, and all of the class instruction and simulations driven into students, I can't imagine that these type maneuvers wouldn't be pre-requisites. It's akin to studying chess to become a grand master but ignoring the 'end game.'

No, it´s more like ignoring the art of winning in chess by attacking only with the king.
Doable, but under >99.99% conditions not sane or realistic.

It´s probably covered on one of the first pages of the introductory text book as part of things NOT to do unless you´re feeling like and extremely lucky punk.

To me it is more akin to supporting your pawn en appui:
deploying the K R P or the Q H P at R 3.

Tenshinai wrote:

TheMonster wrote:I think Schwartzkopf's biggest genius move was letting everyone and his brother know he had Marines on amphibious assault ships ready to land right... well ... that was the question, wasn't it? The Iraqis had to defend the entire coast against Marine landings that ... never happened.

Now THAT part i can agree we may be starting to talk about something more than just competence.

He also actually placed ground troops and equipment, giving the illusion that he was willing and inclined to fighting a traditional ground war. A 52 fake-out!

cthia wrote:

And all are well trained in Old Earth's Top Gun tactics as a teether.

Tenshinai wrote:Top Gun wouldn´t be very relevant. Fighter combat and space naval battles, not much the same.

Well here I tend to disagree. Granted this may be built upon incorrect assumptions on my part, specifically in the area of LAC jocks. I was under the impression that LACs had pretty much the maneuverability of our own attack planes and Manticore's favorable exhange rates was not just a product of its advanced hardware but its jock's fighter capability developed by Scotty Tremaine aboard Alice Truman's Colacs.

Sure, Top Gun action might be slightly useful for LAC close combat. But LAC close combat is completely unrelated to strategy, or even to ordinary tactics. A person gifted in Top Gun type maneuvers is unlikely to be good at tactics or strategy.

cthia wrote:Like that huh? Well I'm amused that you're amused. The S was for superior. I gather you got that. Didn't know what else to label this hypothetical genie. Like Honor, I didn't think pulling a solution out of a hat was appripriate.

Never mind, it´s an anime thing.

cthia wrote:Well here I tend to disagree. Granted this may be built upon incorrect assumptions on my part, specifically in the area of LAC jocks. I was under the impression that LACs had pretty much the maneuverability of our own attack planes and Manticore's favorable exhange rates was not just a product of its advanced hardware but its jock's fighter capability developed by Scotty Tremaine aboard Alice Truman's Colacs.

Nothing like it. It´s more like using speedboats around naval ships than using airplanes.

LACs compared to ships have merely a 30-50% advantage in "speed", rather than a 300-5000% advantage that you find between wetnavy ships and aircraft.

The basic mindset have some similarities, but the tactics does not.

cthia wrote:Honor didn't seem to think it could be done without computer assistance.

Well that´s my impression from the books at least. Not that it CANT be done, but that if you do it, it´s going to be slow going, difficult and if you mess up(which is likely), you´re potenteially in for BIG problems.

What you are basically talking about, Cthia, is the development of Mesan Dorsai.

Since they have known since the beginning that they would eventually need a military fleet, I'm certain they have built a military academy for their upcoming officers. It is likely that many people on Darius have been trained from childhood toward the military career. But I am unconvinced that the Alignment has managed to do very much toward developing the perfect strategist.

For one thing, there is the entire question of what constitutes a good strategy. Remember that there has been no major interstellar wars for hundreds of years, and even those were generally small affairs. How would Mesa decide whether one gene line is better at strategy than another? They could do simulations, and reenactments of old battles, but that does not seem very effective.

But they've probably tried to do what they could. I expect what they generally came up with is a boost to intelligence and lots of training.

SWM wrote:What you are basically talking about, Cthia, is the development of Mesan Dorsai.

Since they have known since the beginning that they would eventually need a military fleet, I'm certain they have built a military academy for their upcoming officers. It is likely that many people on Darius have been trained from childhood toward the military career. But I am unconvinced that the Alignment has managed to do very much toward developing the perfect strategist.

For one thing, there is the entire question of what constitutes a good strategy. Remember that there has been no major interstellar wars for hundreds of years, and even those were generally small affairs. How would Mesa decide whether one gene line is better at strategy than another? They could do simulations, and reenactments of old battles, but that does not seem very effective.

But they've probably tried to do what they could. I expect what they generally came up with is a boost to intelligence and lots of training.

Mesan Dorsai 'eh? I love that reference.
Granted...all of the things you said.
I also know, from the Honorverse itself that Strategy and Tactics, though simulator training is indispensable, it is the actual hot fire of real battles in which the appropriate experience is gained, and competent officer metal is forged, lending credence to said strategy and tactics.

But Mesa has more than just simulator training. They have obviously studied all of the current space Navies from Zanzibar to the RMN. They had to, to have amassed enough information to construct such elaborate plans. Such elaborate successful plans. They already seem to have a grasp on available hardware and fighting capability. I would be hard pressed to believe that they haven't studied all of the allied commander's Strategy and Tactics as well. Cerberus, Sidemore, Trevor's Star, etc. Now studying won't necessarily make them experts, but it does show what's possible. And even Honor's own tactics were used against her and the RMN on several occasions.

So there is a Mesan Military Academy! Now we're talking. I am only positing that these guys may surprise the GA with Naval Officers that are surprisingly adept. At the risk of rendering the GA to having made the same mistake as did the League--

Resting on one's laurels through the sin of arrogance and the bliss of ignorance. -cthia