Silverlode and serfs

PeterZ wrote:The US saw a peak of 1.2 million immigrants in 1907. The vast majority of them came from Europe. That's quite a bit of travel across the Atlantic. Charis could set up passage to Tarot and then to Silverlode. That is quite a bit shorter than crossing the Atlantic. I suspect coasters could make that trip. Passage from the Harchong for delivery to Siddermark is part of the price.

The population of Harchong is 194 million. If 120 million are in North Harchong and 40% of the population are under 30 years old, that implies about 24 million women in peak child bearing age. If Charis bribes the Harchong aristos to allow 8-10 million single Harchongese and another 2-5 million married women and their families, that's 12-15 million women. The total number of immigrants would be around 20-25 million with men and children. That's 2.5 million a year for 10 years and 1.5 million for 15-16 years.

After 10 years or so young Harchong men will have serious problems getting a wife. That will put even more stress on Harchong society.

Is this really practical? Take a look at the geography of Silverlode. There is no way it can support huge numbers of immigrants. The area is mountainous and the agriculture isn't there. In addition to that, what would all those folk do? A certain number of them can be absorbed in the mining industry. But most surely not in the numbers you are proposing.

There is a reason why Silverlode hasn't attracted very many people. Mining can alter that somewhat. But the fundamental issue remains. It can't sustain a large population.

Don

n7axw wrote:
For what it is worth, RFC has the population of the Harchong Empire ---this would include both north and south---listed at 194,000,000. The population of Safehold at this time is at roughly a billion. Some of the figures thrown around seem a bit inflated.

Don

Woah - didn't I get that population wrong.....

PeterZ wrote:The US saw a peak of 1.2 million immigrants in 1907. The vast majority of them came from Europe. That's quite a bit of travel across the Atlantic. Charis could set up passage to Tarot and then to Silverlode. That is quite a bit shorter than crossing the Atlantic. I suspect coasters could make that trip. Passage from the Harchong for delivery to Siddermark is part of the price.

The population of Harchong is 194 million. If 120 million are in North Harchong and 40% of the population are under 30 years old, that implies about 24 million women in peak child bearing age. If Charis bribes the Harchong aristos to allow 8-10 million single Harchongese and another 2-5 million married women and their families, that's 12-15 million women. The total number of immigrants would be around 20-25 million with men and children. That's 2.5 million a year for 10 years and 1.5 million for 15-16 years.

After 10 years or so young Harchong men will have serious problems getting a wife. That will put even more stress on Harchong society.

The pool of available transports in 1907 are in the order or a magnitude (or more) greater then the pool of the available Chraisian ships. Not to mention the technological difference (steel steamers verse wooden sailing ships).

So Charis would be lucky to be able to transfer 100 000 a year - let alone 2.5 million.


Liverpool to New York is approximately 2500 km. From the bottom tip of South Harchong to Charis (via the Harthian Sea and the Sea of Justice is approximately 11000 km. Or over 4 times further.


So, to summarise, you think that a smaller merchant fleet, transporting over 4 times the distance, is going to be able to transfer the same number of people.....


Now let's look at the cultural side of things. You are proposing dropping 20-25 million people into a country with a population of 100 million. The social consequences of this would be disasterous!

How do you think America would cope, if it suddenly had over 70 million Mexiacans dropped into it? The lack of social integration would result in multiple subcultures existing, and end up with constant cultural warfare..... (Think of entire counties where your ethnic group cannot be seen in, and now think about it existing across the entire nation....)


Sorry, I think this entire idea is very bad, as well as unrealistic.

I wouldn't say impractical. Rather that developing Silverlode had required a far greater investment is justified by the return. With the discovery of all that gold and silver terraforming becomes viable. Viable for both attracting the new settlers as well as financing the cost of relocating new settlers.

There are still large chunks of land that need to be terraformed. Using Silverlode's wealth to help make that happen that is a good thing.

n7axw wrote:

PeterZ wrote:The US saw a peak of 1.2 million immigrants in 1907. The vast majority of them came from Europe. That's quite a bit of travel across the Atlantic. Charis could set up passage to Tarot and then to Silverlode. That is quite a bit shorter than crossing the Atlantic. I suspect coasters could make that trip. Passage from the Harchong for delivery to Siddermark is part of the price.

The population of Harchong is 194 million. If 120 million are in North Harchong and 40% of the population are under 30 years old, that implies about 24 million women in peak child bearing age. If Charis bribes the Harchong aristos to allow 8-10 million single Harchongese and another 2-5 million married women and their families, that's 12-15 million women. The total number of immigrants would be around 20-25 million with men and children. That's 2.5 million a year for 10 years and 1.5 million for 15-16 years.

After 10 years or so young Harchong men will have serious problems getting a wife. That will put even more stress on Harchong society.

Is this really practical? Take a look at the geography of Silverlode. There is no way it can support huge numbers of immigrants. The area is mountainous and the agriculture isn't there. In addition to that, what would all those folk do? A certain number of them can be absorbed in the mining industry. But most surely not in the numbers you are proposing.

There is a reason why Silverlode hasn't attracted very many people. Mining can alter that somewhat. But the fundamental issue remains. It can't sustain a large population.

Don

MWadwell wrote:The pool of available transports in 1907 are in the order or a magnitude (or more) greater then the pool of the available Chraisian ships. Not to mention the technological difference (steel steamers verse wooden sailing ships).

So Charis would be lucky to be able to transfer 100 000 a year - let alone 2.5 million.


Liverpool to New York is approximately 2500 km. From the bottom tip of South Harchong to Charis (via the Harthian Sea and the Sea of Justice is approximately 11000 km. Or over 4 times further.


So, to summarise, you think that a smaller merchant fleet, transporting over 4 times the distance, is going to be able to transfer the same number of people.....


Now let's look at the cultural side of things. You are proposing dropping 20-25 million people into a country with a population of 100 million. The social consequences of this would be disasterous!

How do you think America would cope, if it suddenly had over 70 million Mexiacans dropped into it? The lack of social integration would result in multiple subcultures existing, and end up with constant cultural warfare..... (Think of entire counties where your ethnic group cannot be seen in, and now think about it existing across the entire nation....)


Sorry, I think this entire idea is very bad, as well as unrealistic.

Matt,

The immigrants could and likely would travel over land and canals from harchong to Siddermark. From Siddermark to Tarot and only from Tarot to Margrets's Land will the route take them over open ocean for more than 200 miles. I figure the immigrants could land from Tarot at Crest Hallow and take the road to the port cities on Howell Bay. The rest of the journey can be made by coasters.

To summarize the largest open ocean distance traveled in ~600 miles. The rest of the route can be made using roads or coasters. That is well within the carrying capacity of the current generation of merchant ships. The route does not represent any impossibilities.

Let's consider the reasons why the nations involved would want to do this. After the war all the nations will be broke and face significant economic dislocations. Charis will be offering a bribe for the more socially retarded nations to export some of their labor. Many will take the bribe.

The process of transporting those immigrants to Charis involve many other nations. Those nations will also see income for supporting the passage of those people. Consider food sales for the travelers and taxes and tolls for the barges using the canals. This is a way to spread money around that hits every nation. Those nations will be open to the idea.

Now let's consider what those ex-serfs/slaves will be doing in Charis. They are going to an almost uninhabited area. No one is there because the land has not been terraformed. The immigrants will be creating a society that does not exist there. There are no large populations of indiginous people to surplant. There is pretty much only empty unterraformed land.

Since Silverlode is the private property of the House of Ahrmahk, those new immigrants become Cayleb and Sharley's direct vassals. Those ex-serfs/slaves understand that sort of direct relationship quite well. Not only do they understad the relationship but their new sovereign has shown just how much he values them. He bought them from bondage, freed them and gave them as much land as they can consecrate and hold. What serf or slave wouldn't volunteer for that and gladly give his/her loyalty to a man that mad that possible?

The process isn't easy or simple and will be incredibly expensive. So what? The end result will be to increase Charis' base population relatively quickly. If the program incorporates my suggested tweaks, then there is an additional benefit. Silverlode society will be heavily influenced by women's opinion. The higher population of women would mean that women would have greater influence in how Silverlode is governed locally. They will be at the curtting edge of equality for women just as labor saving devices make the physical strength of men less essential to power economic activity.

RFC will do whatever he sees fit for the story. It will be hugely entertaining regardless of how he chooses to write it. I wouldn't be surprised if he incorporated a large scale immigration program for Silverlode and perhaps even the other unconsecrated areas of Safehold like Trellheim and the Barren Lands. To do that the populations of Desnair and North Harchong need to be shifted to where they might be better utilized. Lyonheart's idea might just be how RFC originally envisioned the redistribution of people.

Serfs are available right now for immigration to Siddermark in the Northern (very depopulated) Provinces. That pool consists of the Harchong Army in the Border States.

The Offer for those serfs/soldiers is to come and have land and opportunity. It should be published on the broadsheets.
"Come and surrender your weapon, swear loyalty to the Republic and gain land and eventual Citizenship"

Siddermark would gain the people to repopulate the Northern Provinces, the IHA would lose soldiers & weapons. Freedom would be a powerful attraction.

Charis will not need an influx of serfs, Silverload should slowly develop the mining of precious metals and use those riches to fund war materials, provide investment capital and loans/aid for political gain.

dwileye13 wrote:Serfs are available right now for immigration to Siddermark in the Northern (very depopulated) Provinces. That pool consists of the Harchong Army in the Border States.

The Offer for those serfs/soldiers is to come and have land and opportunity. It should be published on the broadsheets.
"Come and surrender your weapon, swear loyalty to the Republic and gain land and eventual Citizenship"

Siddermark would gain the people to repopulate the Northern Provinces, the IHA would lose soldiers & weapons. Freedom would be a powerful attraction.

Charis will not need an influx of serfs, Silverload should slowly develop the mining of precious metals and use those riches to fund war materials, provide investment capital and loans/aid for political gain.

Yeah, that would go over well with the inquisitors, and the AoG troops they'd have to travel through.

Two points, one of which has already been brought up. A serf is not a slave. Serfs are people bound to the land and oaths of fealty to their lord, but they are not property which can be bought and sold.
The problem with "buying up all the slaves" is two-fold.

If you create sufficient demand, a supply will appear. Magistrates will be bribed, or instructed, to make slavery and indentured servitude a more common punishment. Lords will make deals with one another to "kidnap" each other's serfs into slavery. Other lands will be raided and their people enslaved, particularly if you have lands where the people are ostracized or choose to remain apart from the more populous lands (Trellheim, Ravensland). A movement to end slavery must be founded on moral or legal grounds so as to make the practice itself illegal or abhorent. Attempts to end slavery through "buying them out" only creates a more profitable market for those that acquire slaves. While there may be a fixed pool of availabilty for slaves, if it is profitable enough the pool will grow; much like any other economic commodity.

Sorry PeterZ,

But I still can't see this happening for a number of extra reasons.

To transport 25 million people overland is going to require a huge logistical effort - this isn't going to be able to be managed by individual serfs, this is going to have to be organised by a nation. (I know that you have advocated this, I'm just re-iterating it to then emphasis my next point).

So, why exactly are nations that are hostile to either Siddarmark or Charis going to allow all of these people to either leave their lands, or travel through their lands, as they move to Charis/Siddarmark?

This migration will only hurt them (as they face losing a large number of people, or face having these people cross their lands and stir up their own population to move with them), and what will they gain?

Nothing!

The Inquisitors (at a minimum) will be dead set against it, as will a majority of the non-serf owning leaders (i.e. those who aren't going to make money from it).


And you still haven't addressed the fact that this large, single block of migrants is NOT going to assimilate into Charisian culture!

In fact, if you do as you advocate (and concentrate them on Silverlode), it is going to make it worse - as in time there is the possibility that they will want independance from the rest of Charis (as culturally they are already seperate).


Then there's the fact that ALL of this is based on the fact that Charis is no longer at war. Without reading MWW's mind, I don't know how much longer the war will last (my personal opinion is a temporary truce at the end of the HFQ, or the book after that) - but at the moment this idea is missing the first requirement - Peace....


Later,
Matt

PeterZ wrote:Matt,

The immigrants could and likely would travel over land and canals from harchong to Siddermark. From Siddermark to Tarot and only from Tarot to Margrets's Land will the route take them over open ocean for more than 200 miles. I figure the immigrants could land from Tarot at Crest Hallow and take the road to the port cities on Howell Bay. The rest of the journey can be made by coasters.

To summarize the largest open ocean distance traveled in ~600 miles. The rest of the route can be made using roads or coasters. That is well within the carrying capacity of the current generation of merchant ships. The route does not represent any impossibilities.

Let's consider the reasons why the nations involved would want to do this. After the war all the nations will be broke and face significant economic dislocations. Charis will be offering a bribe for the more socially retarded nations to export some of their labor. Many will take the bribe.

The process of transporting those immigrants to Charis involve many other nations. Those nations will also see income for supporting the passage of those people. Consider food sales for the travelers and taxes and tolls for the barges using the canals. This is a way to spread money around that hits every nation. Those nations will be open to the idea.

Now let's consider what those ex-serfs/slaves will be doing in Charis. They are going to an almost uninhabited area. No one is there because the land has not been terraformed. The immigrants will be creating a society that does not exist there. There are no large populations of indiginous people to surplant. There is pretty much only empty unterraformed land.

Since Silverlode is the private property of the House of Ahrmahk, those new immigrants become Cayleb and Sharley's direct vassals. Those ex-serfs/slaves understand that sort of direct relationship quite well. Not only do they understad the relationship but their new sovereign has shown just how much he values them. He bought them from bondage, freed them and gave them as much land as they can consecrate and hold. What serf or slave wouldn't volunteer for that and gladly give his/her loyalty to a man that mad that possible?

The process isn't easy or simple and will be incredibly expensive. So what? The end result will be to increase Charis' base population relatively quickly. If the program incorporates my suggested tweaks, then there is an additional benefit. Silverlode society will be heavily influenced by women's opinion. The higher population of women would mean that women would have greater influence in how Silverlode is governed locally. They will be at the curtting edge of equality for women just as labor saving devices make the physical strength of men less essential to power economic activity.

RFC will do whatever he sees fit for the story. It will be hugely entertaining regardless of how he chooses to write it. I wouldn't be surprised if he incorporated a large scale immigration program for Silverlode and perhaps even the other unconsecrated areas of Safehold like Trellheim and the Barren Lands. To do that the populations of Desnair and North Harchong need to be shifted to where they might be better utilized. Lyonheart's idea might just be how RFC originally envisioned the redistribution of people.

dwileye13 wrote:Serfs are available right now for immigration to Siddermark in the Northern (very depopulated) Provinces. That pool consists of the Harchong Army in the Border States.

The Offer for those serfs/soldiers is to come and have land and opportunity. It should be published on the broadsheets.
"Come and surrender your weapon, swear loyalty to the Republic and gain land and eventual Citizenship"

Siddermark would gain the people to repopulate the Northern Provinces, the IHA would lose soldiers & weapons. Freedom would be a powerful attraction.

Charis will not need an influx of serfs, Silverload should slowly develop the mining of precious metals and use those riches to fund war materials, provide investment capital and loans/aid for political gain.

I think this sounds a lot more practical than trying for mass immigration to Silverlode. There is a pretty steep cultural divide between Siddamark and Harchong, though. Managed well this can enrich both groups. Botched up, it could end up with a quite a bit of social unrest.

Don