Millennial return of the Archangels + nature of the Seijin

This may have been discussed to death, but if so, I couldn't find it. So:

Having just finished LAMA, it seems to me RFC has been a bit more concrete with regards to the origins of the Seijin legend, stating something along the lines of them being powerful warriors fighting on the side of the light in the war with the fallen Archangels. Also, it has always seemed to me that the Seijin are an odd aberration for Safehold, where all other mythology seems to originate from the Writ. On top of that, the legends about the Seijin and their capabilities are a curiously close match to what Merlin can do.

Combining that, what are the odds the original Seijin were actually PICA's, pressed into service by Schueller and his gang to fight on their side? Since their occurrence would require some explanation, and the Seijin legends have such a "tacked-on" feel to them, it would have been something of a rush-job, perhaps a last-ditch attempt to stop the worst from happening.

And having said all that, what are the odds the "millennial" return of the Archangels will consist of a bunch of PICA's loaded with the personalities of Schueller (and perhaps some of his adjudants) himself? That would be bad, since the whole foundation of the war against the Go4 is that it is the Church who has strayed of the path, while the Archangels themselves are above reproach. The inner circle knows better, of course, but the general public doesn't, and won't be ready for the whole truth for a long time yet. Even 104 years is an awfully short time to change a complete society into dismissing the deities they revered for almost a millennium.

First, there are the legends/stories about the Seijin and there's what the Writ says about the Seijin.

From what David Weber has said (both in the books and here) about what the Writ says about the Seijin, the original Seijin were human (not PICAs). They were given "magic swords" (like Cayleb's) and other high tech tricks by the "Angels".

On the other hand, the legends/stories about Seijin (like Seijin Cody) appear to be "just stories" which are enjoyed as stories but not taken seriously as actual events.

On top of that, Merlin's publicly known abilities are less that what he could actually do. Remember that Cayleb, after witnessing Merlin saving the kids from the krakens, knew that no Seijin could have done what Merlin had done. This from a young man who enjoyed the Seijin Cody stories.

As for the returning Archangels being PICAs, that has come up. However, besides the question of the 10 day limits of PICAs, there is the problem of "if the Archangels had PICAs, why did the Archangels leave?". If the Archangels had PICAs, they could have stayed in control of the Church and when Merlin woke, he have to face several beings just as powerful as him.

jeroen94704 wrote:This may have been discussed to death, but if so, I couldn't find it. So:

Having just finished LAMA, it seems to me RFC has been a bit more concrete with regards to the origins of the Seijin legend, stating something along the lines of them being powerful warriors fighting on the side of the light in the war with the fallen Archangels. Also, it has always seemed to me that the Seijin are an odd aberration for Safehold, where all other mythology seems to originate from the Writ. On top of that, the legends about the Seijin and their capabilities are a curiously close match to what Merlin can do.

Combining that, what are the odds the original Seijin were actually PICA's, pressed into service by Schueller and his gang to fight on their side? Since their occurrence would require some explanation, and the Seijin legends have such a "tacked-on" feel to them, it would have been something of a rush-job, perhaps a last-ditch attempt to stop the worst from happening.

And having said all that, what are the odds the "millennial" return of the Archangels will consist of a bunch of PICA's loaded with the personalities of Schueller (and perhaps some of his adjudants) himself? That would be bad, since the whole foundation of the war against the Go4 is that it is the Church who has strayed of the path, while the Archangels themselves are above reproach. The inner circle knows better, of course, but the general public doesn't, and won't be ready for the whole truth for a long time yet. Even 104 years is an awfully short time to change a complete society into dismissing the deities they revered for almost a millennium.

I think seijins should be able to mount energy torpedo launchers on recon skimmers.

DrakBibliophile wrote:First, there are the legends/stories about the Seijin and there's what the Writ says about the Seijin.
...

jeroen94704 wrote:This may have been discussed to death, but if so, I couldn't find it. So:

Having just finished LAMA, it seems to me RFC has been a bit more concrete with regards to the origins of the Seijin legend, stating something along the lines of them being powerful warriors fighting on the side of the light in the war with the fallen Archangels...

lol

I am going to go back to those legends of the Seijins, what RFC has said about the fighting in the way of Commodore Pei's vest pocket nuke--and a passing comment about "the last confirmed sighting of a demon".

Do you know the difference between a demon and a seijin?

The seijin ended up on the winning side.

Nope, the "demon" was likely one of the "Angels" who was on the losing side in the fighting after Langhorne's death.

So the real question should be "do you know the difference between a demon and an angel" with the answer of "the angel was on the winning side".

AClone wrote:I am going to go back to those legends of the Seijins, what RFC has said about the fighting in the way of Commodore Pei's vest pocket nuke--and a passing comment about "the last confirmed sighting of a demon".

Do you know the difference between a demon and a seijin?

The seijin ended up on the winning side.

A thread that RFC commented on regarding the nature of Seijins can be found at viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2223

It's a fairly short thread, only a couple of pages, but interesting and thought provoking if you are so inclined. (Admittedly, it makes me want to write RPG modules set on Safehold every time I think about it.)

Thanks eldrwyrm here's the quote from 2011:

runsforcelery wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi Drak,

It may well be that it might have been a crew member opposed to Langhorne, and it could have been yet another string on Shan Wei's bow, etc.

Worth a chunk of a book, if we ever get to read it.

Here's hoping,

L

Or it might — might, I say — have been a case of some of the mortals who fought on the side of the archangels against Shan-wei's demonic hordes having been given mystical weapons by the surviving archangels and angels before being sent forth to smite the ungodly. For that matter (who knows?), perhaps some of those mystical weapons might have persisted, remained available, for a generation or two after Shan-wei's defeat. (Do you suppose, for example, that Merlin's katana might not be the very first battle steel blade ever issued on Safehold? Makes you go "hummmm," doesn't it?)

I'm not saying that was what happened, or even anything remotely like it, you understand. Simply tossing out another possibility for consideration.

[Walks away, hands in pockets, whistling tunelessly]

Magic swords, and some may still exist in families, cool. Of course the sword is an up close in your face weapon not the best against long ranged rifles

Poker

Speaking of PICAs: as you all know we already have discussed in what form the archangels would return. If I remember it right then DW was being pretty evasive on that point. He probably still would be now that I think of it.

SPOILER AHEAD!















However during the last such discussion (that I remember at least) we hadn't yet known that Owl would create a new PICA.

Now in light of this new information:

If Owl can create a PICA then the Langhorne faction might well have been able to do the same.
In fact it might have been easier for them with a lot more Federation tech infrastructure and resources than Owl has available in Nimue's cave.

Why I ask would the 'returning Archangels' confine themselves to a virtual personality inside a computer (one of the possibilities we pondered )or anything - or to a decrepit old biological body in cryosleep (another one) - if they could have a flashy, good as new, superhuman PICA body readily available?

I think the Nimue PICA is a strong hint that we may see more PICAs soon.

***

There is one caveat I can think of: we don't know if the Langhornites had a PICA blueprint available. And to our knowledge they didn't have a PICA (to reverse-engineer) available either.

So DW could yet rule that designing a PICA from scratch was beyond their capability.

I personally believe they would have been able to develop one. But that's just that: a belief.

Anyway: if they had the capability then I think they would have done it.

***

As to why we haven't seen any church PICAs yet:

The floor is open to discussion. I can think of several reasons. First and foremost: the Langhornites didn't trust themselves.
Who is to ensure the 'guardian PICA' or PICAs won't go rogue if left to their own devices over the odd millenia or so?

Or go insane. (We already see the stress building up inside Merlin and he's only been active for a couple of years, not a millenium.)

So they might have limited their 'archangels' to short periods of wakefulness.

Well Bruno, who says that the "Archangels" were/are sane?

Bruno Behrends wrote:Speaking of PICAs: as you all know we already have discussed in what form the archangels would return. If I remember it right then DW was being pretty evasive on that point. He probably still would be now that I think of it.

SPOILER AHEAD!















However during the last such discussion (that I remember at least) we hadn't yet known that Owl would create a new PICA.

Now in light of this new information:

If Owl can create a PICA then the Langhorne faction might well have been able to do the same.
In fact it might have been easier for them with a lot more Federation tech infrastructure and resources than Owl has available in Nimue's cave.

Why I ask would the 'returning Archangels' confine themselves to a virtual personality inside a computer (one of the possibilities we pondered )or anything - or to a decrepit old biological body in cryosleep (another one) - if they could have a flashy, good as new, superhuman PICA body readily available?

I think the Nimue PICA is a strong hint that we may see more PICAs soon.

***

There is one caveat I can think of: we don't know if the Langhornites had a PICA blueprint available. And to our knowledge they didn't have a PICA (to reverse-engineer) available either.

So DW could yet rule that designing a PICA from scratch was beyond their capability.

I personally believe they would have been able to develop one. But that's just that: a belief.

Anyway: if they had the capability then I think they would have done it.

***

As to why we haven't seen any church PICAs yet:

The floor is open to discussion. I can think of several reasons. First and foremost: the Langhornites didn't trust themselves.
Who is to ensure the 'guardian PICA' or PICAs won't go rogue if left to their own devices over the odd millenia or so?

Or go insane. (We already see the stress building up inside Merlin and he's only been active for a couple of years, not a millenium.)

So they might have limited their 'archangels' to short periods of wakefulness.