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| Re: when machines begin to surpass us in intelligence | |
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by Tenshinai
» Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:48 pm
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Tenshinai
Posts: 2893
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Machines don´t think, machines manipulates numbers. You can emulate reality through numbers, to some extent. But reality isn´t numbers. |
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| Re: when machines begin to surpass us in intelligence | |
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by Thucydides
» Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:48 pm
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Thucydides
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Many people would beg to differ. While I am not positive that your idea is wrong, it is very interesting that the best and most accurate way to describe this universe is through mathematics, i.e. numbers. |
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| Re: when machines begin to surpass us in intelligence | |
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by umbrarchist
» Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:54 am
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umbrarchist
Posts: 96
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They manipulate SYMBOLS in the form of electrical states. These electrical states can symbolize numbers. The program determines how the symbols are treated. But how can a "Mind" in a von Neumann machine conceptualize the symbols. How many bits are there in all of the registers in the CPU? I really wonder how anyone who has never done assembly language program imagines how computers can be intelligent using the current designs. |
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| Re: when machines begin to surpass us in intelligence | |
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by Tenshinai
» Tue Mar 25, 2014 7:47 pm
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Tenshinai
Posts: 2893
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The map isn´t the territory. Math is the easiest way to describe the universe in a scientific way, not the most accurate. And those who would beg to differ, well that´s their problem. Because describing or representing reality, ISNT reality. No matter how perfect a picture or painting of a person is, the picture or painting is still never the person. And maths can´t really describe reality THAT well. It´s just an extremely convenient way to make it possible to handle reality in ways that are far more problematic if you stay closer to actual reality. There´s an almost endless number of things that can be proven mathematically, which simply are not true. For example, a standard deviation curve? It´s actually effectively a lie. Why? Because it has a bundle of exceptions that cannot be predicted for certain, which means it can only be used correctly for purposes where we know after the fact, where it has already been confirmed, that such a curve IS valid. This has been touched on more and more in the last decade in regards to economics, as old "truths" have shown themselves to not work, no matter how perfectly true and proper the underlying math is. Physics has fewer KNOWN pitfalls, but there´s still plenty of *whoops* done. Especially in regards to physics when time is involved, things go wonky more often than not. There was for example once the mathematically proven idea that if the universe began contracting, time would go in reverse. Red Dwarf had a fun episode with that, but it´s no longer considered a serious idea. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EahHThBjDB0 As long as math isn´t just representing reality, then until it has been shown to also correspond 1:1 in both directions, you simply can´t trust an answer completely. |
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| Re: when machines begin to surpass us in intelligence | |
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by Brigade XO
» Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:54 pm
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Brigade XO
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Just imagine what happens if you set up a Cyborg and the brain in it either 1) goes crazy- which is very possible, or 2) developes Alzheimer's.
Now picture this cyborg being the core of a system running the infrastructure of a major city, or a national defense system. Logic will have nothing to do with what that is going to generate. |
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| Re: when machines begin to surpass us in intelligence | |
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by Lord Skimper
» Sat Apr 05, 2014 9:01 am
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Lord Skimper
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The simple answer is that time doesn't exist and your math is wrong.
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Just don't ask what is in the protein bars. |
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| Re: when machines begin to surpass us in intelligence | |
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by Lord Skimper
» Sat Apr 05, 2014 9:19 am
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Lord Skimper
Posts: 1736
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Time is just a construct used by people to apply order on a fluid local affair to describe reality. It is an adjective.
There is no future, it hasn't happened yet. There is no present. There is only past and a steady progression that only goes one way. Recent past, which we call present. Anything from milliseconds to several seconds. Up to minutes. Even the thought that you are having right now is in the past. Reading now takes time to get to your eyes. To go from your eyes to your you part of consciousness and to be figured out that in the progression past recent that now is now. But really was now a little while ago. All you can know is past. Our brains just make up time to deal with stuff. A great example of this is reading a Weber book. Events that take place in it are all in the past. Are a possible future and while reading it have a now past present feeling to them but are all and always will be a now past. Time doesn't exist we just make it up. A future event, like a star going nova and wiping us all out with a gamma burst. Has already happened. We just don't know it yet. Stars themselves are ancient past, they are not what they are in the sky. They are what they were however far away they were. We just say they are when really we should say were. As for your math. It is a current era limit of what math is convient to be. Base 9 called base 10 with a 10-Zero problem and a constraint to limit all interactions to being done only in the so called base 10 decimal error. Oh well. That was all in the past. ________________________________________
Just don't ask what is in the protein bars. |
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| Re: when machines begin to surpass us in intelligence | |
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by Lord Skimper
» Sun Apr 06, 2014 2:46 am
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Lord Skimper
Posts: 1736
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Machines will be us, internal and cyborg like extensions of our grey matter, making us or some may say evolving us into even smarter than human beings.
Some suggest that implants will even go a step further and change things even more. We will live on tasteless gruel that implants will trick us into thinking is a very good meal. Of course that is one step from the matrix. The matrix will be? Well it depends who / what rules the matrix. The Machines, the cyborgs or the humans? We could all live the good rich life of the Honorverse. Or comic books. Or Two and a half men, you pick your TV show... Now will that matrix be on our colony ship heading to ...Tau Ceti ... Or who knows where or will it be in the Elysium soup can. On Mars or Earth? Willn't even need be jacked in, WiFi connections and we can be in a booth anywhere. Add entangle WiFi 802.11 ENT-B. Cryosleep and low to no gravity preserve, prolong might not be pretty but it sure will be fun. Plus the immortality of the Matrix means we can go back after taking dangerous risks. Doesn't this sound great. ________________________________________
Just don't ask what is in the protein bars. |
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| Re: when machines begin to surpass us in intelligence | |
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by Lord Skimper
» Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:35 am
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Lord Skimper
Posts: 1736
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Bold statements with no support are just that a bold statement. Numbers are values that represent something. That something can be represented in many ways. One would suggest you are making what Gilbert Rule would call a category mistake. Looking at the parts and not seeing the thing. Sometimes referenced in the saying: not seeing the forest through the trees. Although Rule would suggest you looked at the component parts of a parade but failed to see the parade. Thinking is a process with a goal. Tracy Lounsbury. Perhaps you should look up Daniel Dennett, he has a fairly good web based showing / adaptation. Charlie (CB) Martin would point out in his Cue Manifestation that components of consciousness is found in the intentionality of unconscious things, down to the level of the quark. P F Strawson who might lend support to your cause, would point out that your claim is wrong. But he disagreed with many. Place and Searl might provide more support from a purely material of what something is made of POV, or you could go all Descartes and claim that machines don't have souls. But then you should read Gilbert Rule again. Dennett's multiple drafts will also help clarify these things. Maybe Bertrand Russell can help explain that your thinking of yourself in solipsistalic terms. But we all know that is wrong. Berkeley might adda godhead to your thinking and provide a bishops link to your thinking. But please support your statements. Otherwise one could just yell: "I am wrong!". Think about it. ________________________________________
Just don't ask what is in the protein bars. |
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| Re: when machines begin to surpass us in intelligence | |
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by Tenshinai
» Sun Apr 06, 2014 3:35 pm
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Tenshinai
Posts: 2893
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No, it´s basic facts. Most of the rest of your post is simply a bundle of uses of the logic fallacy of appealing to authority.
Exactly. They represent something, they ARE not that thing. In the same way that you can make computer graphics look realistic, but that doesn´t make it real.
Oh yes... But unless you start using Entish as the programming language, that doesn´t get you far at all. And even if you do, and use up insane amounts of memory for databases, a computer can still get stumped on simple questions. Ask an AI how its day was and you will either get a canned, shorthand standardised reply, or you will get something inanely stupid. Try telling an AI that it´s panties are on fire. Better yet, say that while some distance away, well within sight, someone is burning some panties. And be amused by reactions that are not in accordance with what any intelligent being would provide. This kind of test on a monkey or even a parrot, will give reactions not unlike that of a human, but an AI can´t handle it. And during my lifetime, many have the claims been about REAL AIs, and they still can´t make them actually THINK. Only COMPUTE. |
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