New Manty ship ideas.

Rakhmamort wrote:
1) You don't send in Katanas on a strike unless the other side has defending LACs.
2) Even so, 2 Squadrons of Ferrets, 8 of Shrikes and 2 of Katanas. You can add 1 or 2 squadrons of whatever type you want if you are not using the 96 LAC wing size. The ratio is practically the same. So it's just going to be nitpicking because of a 2 or 3% difference.

Why not? The Katanas are some of the most effective missile-defence platforms around, any LAC strike will benefit from having them along. And that's without considering the possible effectiveness of Vipers against destroyers or light cruisers.

Dafmeister wrote:And the counterpoint is that it's not a question of the raw damage output numbers, it's about the force you can bring to bear at a given point. You're arguing that the RMN should put remove weapons that are effective in a broad range of circumstances in favour of weapons that can only be used to give a quicker coup de grace to an enemy who is already badly damaged, is probably falling behind its companions and can be finished off readily by other means. In the meantime, your energy torpedo LAC is has reduced effectiveness, which is hampering its ability to actually cripple that enemy in the first place.

Since I have been 'schooled' that missiles will be used en masse and only at the start of battle, 5 LACs firing 126 missiles instead of 136 isn't such a huge change in the force you can bring at that given time. You lost 7% of your missile power.

Your 5 LACs still have the 4 grasers which is your standard damage dealer. 0% loss of force.

I don't know how much force ETorps bring, but I'm quite sure it's worth several graser shots if it is used and hits.

Instead of wasting several more passes to finish off the laggard, you can dispatch it and run after its fleeing cohorts giving you more time to take them out.

If the only purpose, or even the primary purpose, of LACs was to act as hounds dragging down wounded prey, then putting energy torpedoes into the mix might make sense. They're actually intended for screening, scouting, direct combat against enemy light units and, increasingly, fleet missile defence. It makes no sense to compromise their capabilities in those areas in exchange for a greater ability to kill cripples, who can often be compelled to surrender in any case.

Note that you already have 3 versions of LACs, 2 of which are designed to specialize in selected roles. Neither Ferrets nor Katanas are specialized with combat against light units or for dragging down wounded prey. You use Shrikes for those missions. You can improve the dragging down wounded prey ability of Shrikes if you can install ETorp launchers as suggested. Having them vs light units might even be good. If 7 ETorps can take down a waller, what happens when ETorps hit a light unit?

Dafmeister wrote:

Rakhmamort wrote:Why not? The Katanas are some of the most effective missile-defence platforms around, any LAC strike will benefit from having them along. And that's without considering the possible effectiveness of Vipers against destroyers or light cruisers.

Fine, they can come along. But it would weaken the argument about losing a lot of missiles if ETorp launchers would be installed. lol!

Rakhmamort wrote:
Since I have been 'schooled' that missiles will be used en masse and only at the start of battle, 5 LACs firing 126 missiles instead of 136 isn't such a huge change in the force you can bring at that given time. You lost 7% of your missile power.

Your 5 LACs still have the 4 grasers which is your standard damage dealer. 0% loss of force.

I don't know how much force ETorps bring, but I'm quite sure it's worth several graser shots if it is used and hits.

Instead of wasting several more passes to finish off the laggard, you can dispatch it and run after its fleeing cohorts giving you more time to take them out.

[Edit] Losing 10 missiles out of 136 doesn't sound like all that much, but it's not the important change. You're firing that missiles out of 18 tubes instead of 20, so you're losing 10% of your missile salvo density on every salvo. That means the enemy defensive fire has an easier time, you don't score as many hits or as quickly, and it takes longer to inflict the kind of damage that brings down sidewall generators which you have to do before you can use the energy torpedoes at all. Having the energy torpedoes reduces your ability to create the opportunity to use them.[/Edit]

If the timing is that critical, then you go after the fleeing cohorts first, cripple as many as you can and then deal with the cripples once the survivors have escaped into hyper. Or the LACs pursue the healthy ships while the carrier's escorts deal with the cripples with long-range missile fire. Or... or... or... There are a lot of variables and a lot of options, none of which are predicated on being able to take out a cripple in one salvo.

Rakhmamort wrote:Note that you already have 3 versions of LACs, 2 of which are designed to specialize in selected roles. Neither Ferrets nor Katanas are specialized with combat against light units or for dragging down wounded prey. You use Shrikes for those missions. You can improve the dragging down wounded prey ability of Shrikes if you can install ETorp launchers as suggested. Having them vs light units might even be good. If 7 ETorps can take down a waller, what happens when ETorps hit a light unit?

1) As I've said, I have my suspicions that the Viper may give the Katanas some combat ability against light units. Ferrets are definitely capable of combat against light units with their missiles. In any case, the individual LAC isn't the weapon system, it's the LAC wing. Shrikes, Ferrets and now Katanas are all part of that weapon system.

2) Again, dragging down wounded prey is only one use of LACs and not a primary one. It makes no sense to increase a Shrike's ability to kill cripples if it weakens the Shrike's, and therefore the wing's, ability to perform its primary functions.

Dafmeister wrote:[Edit] Losing 10 missiles out of 136 doesn't sound like all that much, but it's not the important change. You're firing that missiles out of 18 tubes instead of 20, so you're losing 10% of your missile salvo density on every salvo. That means the enemy defensive fire has an easier time, you don't score as many hits or as quickly, and it takes longer to inflict the kind of damage that brings down sidewall generators which you have to do before you can use the energy torpedoes at all. Having the energy torpedoes reduces your ability to create the opportunity to use them.[/Edit]

I doubt LACs launch their salvos that way. I believe the reason why it was underlined that the rotary launchers can fire every 3(?) seconds is, with that capability, stacking the salvo becomes a trivial exercise.

If the timing is that critical, then you go after the fleeing cohorts first, cripple as many as you can and then deal with the cripples once the survivors have escaped into hyper. Or the LACs pursue the healthy ships while the carrier's escorts deal with the cripples with long-range missile fire. Or... or... or... There are a lot of variables and a lot of options, none of which are predicated on being able to take out a cripple in one salvo.

It's always on a case to case basis. You cannot always rely on having a carrier or carrier's escorts available. The LACs might be the only mobile defense for a rear area planet. It is always a bad idea to leave an enemy at your back, wounded or not, that ship will have a shot at the aft aspect of your wedges. You need to accelerate so no bow/aft walls --> dead LAC.

1) As I've said, I have my suspicions that the Viper may give the Katanas some combat ability against light units. Ferrets are definitely capable of combat against light units with their missiles. In any case, the individual LAC isn't the weapon system, it's the LAC wing. Shrikes, Ferrets and now Katanas are all part of that weapon system.

As I've said, you bring Katanas into the mix, the % of lost launchers/missiles become smaller. Makes replacing 2 launchers in a Shrike less of a firepower loss.

2) Again, dragging down wounded prey is only one use of LACs and not a primary one. It makes no sense to increase a Shrike's ability to kill cripples if it weakens the Shrike's, and therefore the wing's, ability to perform its primary functions.

How can giving the wing the ability to take down a wounded warship very fast weaken it? Taking less attack runs to take out that ship would mean less chances that it can kill one of your LACs.

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If you really are hard up for missiles, LAC missile pods that can magnetically attach to the LAC's hull. (That is, if standard missile pods are too big for LACs to take with them)

OK, lets run down situations. Assuming approximately equal combat power on both sides, just LACs on one side and stated ships on the other, and both sides knowing there is going to be a battle.

Undamaged DD, CL, or CA: The main graser can go through the sidewall, through the ship, and out the other sidewall. ETs are useless. (That was probably a bit of an exaggeration. The second sidewall might stop the graser.)

Damaged DD, CL, or CA: The main graser can gut the ship. ETs are unnecessary.

Undamaged BC: Main graser can cause significant damage to the enemy. ETs are useless.

Damaged BC: The main graser is more then enough to force a surrender. If he doesn't surrender it is enough to destroy him. ETs are unnecessary.

Undamaged capitol ship: The only reason you would send in LACs against undamaged capitol ships is if you were OK with every LAC dying. SVW show that BC grasers are useless against capitol ship sidewalls when Adm Pierre tried to attack a DN. They won't get the time to use ETs.

Damaged Capitol ships: In this case it sort of depends on what the damage is.

If the sidewalls are completely down, then, yes, the ETs can be used to completely destroy the ship, but most COs would surrender due to the fact that the grasers would be enough to destroy the ship before it could escape.

If the damage was enough to take out only most of the sidewalls the ETs are, again, useless. Capitol ships have multiple generators in each broadside, and they can be adjusted to cover more space. If they have even a single sidewall generator running at only partial levels, and manage to get a sidewall up at 2%, the ETs are useless. The graser can punch through that sidewall and do damage to the hull of the ship. The graser can continue to take out weapons and drive nodes while the ETs can't do anything.

As for crossing the T to fire ETs down the throat. It is an unnecessary maneuver up to CA, and ETs wound't destroy a BC anymore than the grasers would. It is actually a BAD idea to do this on a capitol ship because the bow and stern are where they have the best sensors and the strongest energy weapons. They have the best chance of penetrating your stealth field and localizing you ship, and can rip through your sidewall as if it wasn't there.

As far as your idea of using ETs to try to heard enemy ships in the way you want them to go, it is like trying to heard a tank by firing a hand gun at it. The tank crew will more or less ignore you.

I was loathe to enter into this thread, given the passions involved, but I had a thought while waiting in line for my Double Whopper with Cheese (but no french fries--I have to maintain my youthful figure... )

So, the issue is destroying a enemy vessel that has suffered the catastrophic loss of it's sidewalls, either through battle damage or some whim of fate. Most ships in that condition would probably surrender, IMHO, but some (like pirates or MAlign ships with the spider drive or other secret stuff) may not have that option.

On one hand Rakhmammort (who, we must acknowlege, has fought his ground well, if a bit testily at times, against formidable opposition) maintains that Energy Torpedos replacing tubes on a small number of LACs would be the best solution.

On the other hand (most of the rest of the Forumites) like this idea as much as fetid dingo's kidney's (I'll leave the origin of that saying for your own study...) and maintain that it would revise the LAC for no good reason, that the current weapon mix is useful and good and change is not needed...and many, many other arguments.

But on the gripping hand.....(two SF crossover references in one post!)

WHy not, in perhaps 1 in 10 LACs add one or two missiles with a large contact-nuke warhead. If there is no sidewall and if the LAC can get close enough to use ET there can't be much Point Defense left or time to use it (ET range, IIRC, is close enought that even PD Laser Clusters could probably be used against a LAC--or an ET, for that matter).

And a multi-megaton nuke or two exploding directly against the hull of a warship should make a most satisfactory hole in space--or at least such a hole in the ship's remaining electronics and weaponry as to render it completely out of fight.

Heck, even a Kinentic Strike from distance with enough time to get the Missile to .7c or so ought to do the trick.

And no tubes have to be removed--and if things go to hell, the contact nuke missiles can still be shot off, even at low odds of doing any damage, to attract countermissiles if nothing else.

I will return to lurking now, prepared for the worst from both sides.

IMHO as always. YMMV.

Rakhmamort wrote:
It's always on a case to case basis. You cannot always rely on having a carrier or carrier's escorts available. The LACs might be the only mobile defense for a rear area planet. It is always a bad idea to leave an enemy at your back, wounded or not, that ship will have a shot at the aft aspect of your wedges. You need to accelerate so no bow/aft walls --> dead LAC.

Then the enemy force is retreating and you've already achieved your objective. If you can't put yourself on such a vector that the cripple doesn't have a shot up your kilt, you break off, return to base and reload your missile tubes.

Rakhmamort wrote:As I've said, you bring Katanas into the mix, the % of lost launchers/missiles become smaller. Makes replacing 2 launchers in a Shrike less of a firepower loss.

Actually, putting Katanas into the mix would increase then percentage value of each shipkiller tube.

Rakhmamort wrote:How can giving the wing the ability to take down a wounded warship very fast weaken it? Taking less attack runs to take out that ship would mean less chances that it can kill one of your LACs.

Because the objective of the LAC's weapons load isn't to finish off cripples, it's to create cripples (or dead ships). Missiles and grasers/lasers do that, so removing them in favour of energy torpedoes (which don't do that) weakens the wing.

Just to jump in here perhaps this would help.

Would a standard energy torpedo fit on a Highlander LAC? If not then either it needs to be made smaller and at that point a Graser or Laser is better, or you need an Energy torpedo DD which sounds an awful lot like a HAC.

Perhaps instead of the Etorp or even a Graser one might take a Highlander 2 or 282 series LAC and mount a set of lasers on it. One Graser is best if it hits the gap. But 10 lasers have 10 times the chance to hit that gap. The can also be used as PD too.

Rakhmamort wrote:And while the LAC is turning 'off bore' to fire it's teeny weeny missiles, is the graser doing any damage? Oh wow! I'll fire off the remaining 8 missiles in my tubes. Turn! Turn! Turn! Drop the bow wall! Release the firecrakers! Put up the bow wall! Turn back! Turn back! Turn back!

Instead of doing such an evolution, why not continually blast the enemy with your graser and open 2 additional ports for your ETorps. Open all the ports at the same time, synchronize your weapons fire, if you really are concerned about being hit while you are firing. It wouldn't matter if you one or 3 gunports open. If a LAC gets hit with a gunport open, chances are, it's dead.

Um, if you're holding stationary relative to even a BC in an energy dual with a LAC you're doing something very, very, wrong.

You aren't turning away to fire your missiles. You're turning away to accelerate past as part of a scissors attack while other LACs in your wing swing in. You've got to turn away and drop the bow wall anyway to accelerate and keep from getting bracketed by return fire.

The fact that it frees you use to launch additional attack missiles or more likely tube-launched EM drones is a bonus.


Although if you had happened to drop a big part of their sidewall, no reason not to try to score with a contact nuke against their hull, or ram a missile wedge through it; heck try a CM hit against the hull the higher accel will help zip past any remaining point defense. [Edit: I see Hutch already touched on this]