SPOILER: Go4 Discussions after AoS and IHA defeats

Randomiser wrote:If Merlin thinks he can't operate snarcs near the Temple for fear of being detected, why on earth do people imagine it is possible to sneak a pocket nuke into the Temple? Given what happened to Langhorne one might think the Temple builders would be a tad sensitive about nukes. Whatever people think about the moral question, I just don't see it can be remotely practical.

You may well be right. I'm not all that well versed on what it would take. I was visualing something shielded with lead set up with a timer that would release a pin that would set off a primer that would set off the nuke. I've probably left out some needed steps. But visualize this as a process that would use no juice prior to setting the thing off. The problem with snarcs is detectable power needed for tranmitting info.

But I have no idea if this would work. The concept is crude compared the tech Merlin and Nimue would have been familiar with. But that very crudeness may well be the thing that gets it past the sensor systems looking for something more sophisticated.

Don

n7axw wrote:

Randomiser wrote:If Merlin thinks he can't operate snarcs near the Temple for fear of being detected, why on earth do people imagine it is possible to sneak a pocket nuke into the Temple? Given what happened to Langhorne one might think the Temple builders would be a tad sensitive about nukes. Whatever people think about the moral question, I just don't see it can be remotely practical.

You may well be right. I'm not all that well versed on what it would take. I was visualing something shielded with lead set up with a timer that would release a pin that would set off a primer that would set off the nuke. I've probably left out some needed steps. But visualize this as a process that would use no juice prior to setting the thing off. The problem with snarcs is detectable power needed for tranmitting info.

But I have no idea if this would work. The concept is crude compared the tech Merlin and Nimue would have been familiar with. But that very crudeness may well be the thing that gets it past the sensor systems looking for something more sophisticated.

Don

One of the more tricky aspects of nuclear weapons is the need to ensure that all the explosive charges go off at exactly the right time to get the proper implosion. If the timing is off in the slightest, then you have a dirty bomb with little or no fission yield. I doubt this could be done with out electrical timing and very precisely manufactured components. Certainly it cannot be done with the fuses that are currently available.

Here is a thought regarding returning Archangels etc...
The people in charge of the mission are in breach of the mission objectives. Those in charge were all civilian (the miltiary ones were killed).
SO if the computers commanding the ships/equipment are shown that the mission leaders are in breach of their mission directives and there is no other military person available that would make Nimue the Senior Federation Officer on site.........

U-235 bombs do not need to use implosion. Gun type weapons are quite doable. "Little Boy" was a gun type weapon. Not sure that would require electronics at all.

I would also think that an implosion weapon could be built as the electronic pulse of the implosion system would be both an extremely brief and an extremely small part of a much larger EM event in any case.

Hildum wrote:...

One of the more tricky aspects of nuclear weapons is the need to ensure that all the explosive charges go off at exactly the right time to get the proper implosion. If the timing is off in the slightest, then you have a dirty bomb with little or no fission yield. I doubt this could be done with out electrical timing and very precisely manufactured components. Certainly it cannot be done with the fuses that are currently available.

Hi Randomiser,

Kudos again for the excellent points!

I concur with all the arguments against sneaking a nuke into the temple.

OTOH, I've wondered before since Nahrmahn and OWL with his reinvention of useful obsolete by federation technologies, couldn't discover sensor technologies that were below the threat recognition level of what the temple sensors considered viable threats, ie would 22nd century tech be too crude for the 24th-25th century federation sensors?

Given how Merlin tested steam engines, I'd expect OWL to test Nahrmahn's suggestions against his own sensor suite before letting them worm their way literally nearer the temple, using various unorthodox combinations that weren't considered effective, viable or 'efficient' by the federation, but permit these 'crude' solutions to pass by the more sophisticated sensors.

How often has history demonstrated such solutions?

L

Randomiser wrote:If Merlin thinks he can't operate snarcs near the Temple for fear of being detected, why on earth do people imagine it is possible to sneak a pocket nuke into the Temple? Given what happened to Langhorne one might think the Temple builders would be a tad sensitive about nukes. Whatever people think about the moral question, I just don't see it can be remotely practical.

Well, the half-thickness for the high energy gamma's is in the order of an inch (give or take) - and I would be surprised if the temple defenses enacted after Langhorne was killed wasn't simple, reliable radiation meters.....

So any bomb with enough shielding to get passed the gamma detectors is going to mass a LOT more then a suitcase (think of a truck.....)

So, I'm not convinced that it is practical to try and nuke the Temple.


Later,
Matt

jgnfld wrote:U-235 bombs do not need to use implosion. Gun type weapons are quite doable. "Little Boy" was a gun type weapon. Not sure that would require electronics at all.

I would also think that an implosion weapon could be built as the electronic pulse of the implosion system would be both an extremely brief and an extremely small part of a much larger EM event in any case.

Hildum wrote:...

One of the more tricky aspects of nuclear weapons is the need to ensure that all the explosive charges go off at exactly the right time to get the proper implosion. If the timing is off in the slightest, then you have a dirty bomb with little or no fission yield. I doubt this could be done with out electrical timing and very precisely manufactured components. Certainly it cannot be done with the fuses that are currently available.

Interesting post, Matt. How big do you think that Pei Kauyung's vest pocket nuke was? Now obviously you are not going to slip something the mass of a truck in strapped under some priest's cassock.

So how big does it have to be? We are not talking about something the size of the one that was dropped on Hiroshima. All we want to do is thoroughly trash the inside of the temple including the basement and we are working on the presumption that the inside of the temple is not nearly so strong as the shell.

Or would something other than a nuke work better? I'm no genius at this stuff. But it does seem to me that there are two constraints here. The first has to do with electricity. Electricity transmits magnetic waves along the wire carrying the juice, but that can in large measure be minimized by good shielding around the center wire carrying the juice. So a small current carried in coaxical cable would only transmit very weakly, perhaps weakly enough to get lost in the hash from the stuff the temple already has going. That at much seems straight forward, although I don't know how weak the current would need to be. But the better the shielding, the less gets transmitted for a sensor to pick up. Or, perhaps one avoids juice altogether and uses a spring wind up timer that releases a pin onto primer that explodes on impact which is how I was visualizing in my previous post.

The second issue you mentioned in your post. That of radiation from the nuclear material. But that brings us back to my original question...how big? Something the size of a pineapple enclosed in a lead encased box would seem doable, sealed up so that only the timer would be visible outside the box. Taking your figure of one half inch casing would make it a bit heavy, but probably not unmanageable. But then on the other hand, I'm not sure just how heavy our so called pineapple would be!

To conclude my musings, it is obvious that the only persons in the Safehold universe who could construct such a thing would be Nimue and Merlin. They would do it in the cave using materials that you and I have never heard of so all of this speculating is probably pretty much off the mark! Oh well, it was fun anyway!

Don

Thanks Matt

I was trying to think of a tactful way of putting that; the problem is not that a nuke uses electronics, but that it is highly radioactive. (Besides, you need pretty big pockets )

Don, the half-thickness mentioned is the amount of lead required to reduce the Gamma radiation to half it's original level, NOT to stop it altogether. To get it down below detectable levels would require a much thicker shield.

1) Magic materials such as the indestructible plastic shield on Langhorne's statue likely are available for shielding.

2) The survivors likely did not know how the bomb was delivered.

3) For trigger, chemical laser, pulsed, several nonlinear optical materials to sharpen the front end of the wavefront, and trigger at points. I am quite sure I read about this technology being studied for deployment 50 years ago because it is immune to EMP effects ... all parts are insulators.

Randomiser wrote:Thanks Matt

I was trying to think of a tactful way of putting that; the problem is not that a nuke uses electronics, but that it is highly radioactive. (Besides, you need pretty big pockets )

Don, the half-thickness mentioned is the amount of lead required to reduce the Gamma radiation to half it's original level, NOT to stop it altogether. To get it down below detectable levels would require a much thicker shield.

phillies wrote:1) Magic materials such as the indestructible plastic shield on Langhorne's statue likely are available for shielding.

2) The survivors likely did not know how the bomb was delivered.

3) For trigger, chemical laser, pulsed, several nonlinear optical materials to sharpen the front end of the wavefront, and trigger at points. I am quite sure I read about this technology being studied for deployment 50 years ago because it is immune to EMP effects ... all parts are insulators.

Randomiser wrote:Thanks Matt

I was trying to think of a tactful way of putting that; the problem is not that a nuke uses electronics, but that it is highly radioactive. (Besides, you need pretty big pockets )

Don, the half-thickness mentioned is the amount of lead required to reduce the Gamma radiation to half it's original level, NOT to stop it altogether. To get it down below detectable levels would require a much thicker shield.

Thanks guys for the interesting posts. This is not my specialty, after all, but the exercise of imagination was fun and your responses informative. Does anybody have a guess how much my pineapple would weigh?

Also, given what we know about our current tech, let's assume that my idea isn't possible. But given the tech Nimue would have been accustomed to in the TFN, do we know enough about that to speculate how what is possible might shift?

Don