SPOILER: Go4 Discussions after AoS and IHA defeats

I would suspect that the answer to the question as to how well protected whatever is in the basement is probaby rests in the belief of the temple's creators that the outer shell provides protection for the whole facility. Merlin noted that he could develop a missile to take out the temple, but would destroy the city of Zion as a consequence which he was unwilling to do. A properly designed vest pocket nuke would not compromise the shell, but the contained energy would obliterate everything within, including the basement, limiting the collateral damage to inside the temple itself. That would be the concept anyway.

As for going in with the vest pocket nuke and trying to get to the basement to seize the computer and turn off the automatics considering the nuke as a last resort, I think that idea has merit. But there are some problems to overcome. First remember that it was concern about triggering temple security systems that prevented Merlin fron running surveilence in the temple. Given that, a fully functional PICA's power supply would face the same set of problems which could well abort the mission before it could be carried out. That would rule out using Merlin or Nimue.

Using Father Paityr in most ways would seem to be a very good thought. But given the fact that at one time he worked in the temple, would he be in danger of being recognized? That one would probably be worked around with a disguise of some sort. But it would be something that would need to be dealt with.

There remains one more problem. If you can't get Merlin or Nimue to the basement, who deals with the computer or whatever else might be there? Dunno. I have no answer to this one.

Don

However, there was no particular expectation that the atomic bomb would end the war in a few weeks. It appeared to be an alternative, very expensive way of doing to cities what we were already doing to cities. The point on casualties is well said.

Hildum wrote:

n7axw wrote:
But you still have a valid point from a moral perspective. But does anyone believe that there is a moral way to wage war? Can we ever say that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were moral? Or the fire bombing of Tokyo? I don't. Yet it has been argued, probably rightly, that the loss of life would have been much worse on the Japanese side had the nukes not been used and we had gone ahead with a conventional invasion.

Don

It always amazes me that people forget that approximately 100,000 Allied civilians and combatants (mostly civilians) a month were being killed in the Pacific theater at the time the bombs were used. So, what is the moral choice: use weapons that will kill less than two a month's casualties (and all of them your enemy's) and end the war in a week, or not use them and accept the 100,000/month casualties on your own side for at least six months, plus the additional million or so expected in the various invasion plans as well as who knows how many Japanese casualties.

n7axw wrote:[snip]
Using Father Paityr in most ways would seem to be a very good thought. But given the fact that at one time he worked in the temple, would he be in danger of being recognized? That one would probably be worked around with a disguise of some sort. But it would be something that would need to be dealt with.

There remains one more problem. If you can't get Merlin or Nimue to the basement, who deals with the computer or whatever else might be there? Dunno. I have no answer to this one.

Don

I can see two broad scenarios for going into the Temple. Scenario 1 is commando raid, swooping down in Chekhov's Assault Shuttle and offloading up to 200 people. If that's the route we end up going down, there will be no need for disguises, and people carrying TFN weapons will be able to have comm links to OWL and Merlin (and hell, probably Merlin along for the ride to boot), so the concern about computers is moot.

Scenario 2 is a bit more sneaky, and might involve someone like Paityr who knows the Temple environs but would need a disguise. I would hope that he could still have a comm link, but that would be a lot tenser and more uncertain in outcome as he would presumably have very little backup or support.

PeterZ wrote:(SNIP)

I understand your concerns here. It strikes me though that there are two broad ways to deal with the CoGA. Destroy the leadership asap and then allow time to gradually shape Safehold society into somthing less constraining. The alternative is to slwoly destroy the CoGA so that all vestige of trust in that institution is destroyed, then destroy the OBS. Arguments may be made for both approaches.

(SNIP)

I can see advantages to both - but IMHO, the best long term solution is to destroy people's faith (no pun intended... ) in the church leadership.

If the church leadership is overthrown (i.e. through the military capture of Zion), then people's faith in the church is still going to exist - resulting in strong resistence to technological innovation, and the constant risk of civil war between the Temple Loyalists and the technological innovators.

If the Church is allowed time to discredit itself, then there will be little to no temple loyalists, and as a result, innovation will not be inhibited by the general population.

Hi Matt et. al.,

There is probably merit to how you are projecting people's reaction to a quick conquest would go. But these folk have a pretty infantile faith which they have been frozen into from the start. A shocker like having the temple go down will destroy the faith of a lot of them. For others it will be proof that God wasn't on the temple's side after all. If He had been, He wouldn't have let those nasty heretics win, would He? What I am pointing out is that this is not predicable whatever course of action you take.

Don

n7axw wrote:Hi Matt et. al.,

There is probably merit to how you are projecting people's reaction to a quick conquest would go. But these folk have a pretty infantile faith which they have been frozen into from the start. A shocker like having the temple go down will destroy the faith of a lot of them. For others it will be proof that God wasn't on the temple's side after all. If He had been, He wouldn't have let those nasty heretics win, would He? What I am pointing out is that this is not predicable whatever course of action you take.

Don

Allow me to by the Devil's Advocate. Loyalists might well say that God established His church and is disappointed in how many people are not sufficiently supportive of it. By allowing the CoGA to lose, he is allowing those that did not fight hard enough to suffer in the hopes that eventually a deeper faith in His Plan will develope.

It would help if the Loyalist arguments acknowledges that most of the Reformers mean well but have been misguided. Heck, it wouldn't hurt to admist that Clyntahn is an SOB and hasn't helped things but is God's tool to work His will on the weak willed Safeholdians who support reform.

n7axw wrote:Hi Matt et. al.,

There is probably merit to how you are projecting people's reaction to a quick conquest would go. But these folk have a pretty infantile faith which they have been frozen into from the start. A shocker like having the temple go down will destroy the faith of a lot of them. For others it will be proof that God wasn't on the temple's side after all. If He had been, He wouldn't have let those nasty heretics win, would He? What I am pointing out is that this is not predicable whatever course of action you take.

Don

What's the saying - "Give me the child, I will give you the man" - attributed to Ignatius Loyola.

Once someone has an established faith, it is very hard to lose it.

It may be weakened, but it will always be there. That is why it takes generations for religious beliefs to weaken to the point of atheism.


To bring this to Safehold, that is why, IMHO, Merlin is pushing the reformist movement, as it is easier to convert people from one sect of a religion to another sect of the same religion, then it is to convert someone to atheism.

On a different tack we know there is no direct way available to take out the Rakurai. To have them in orbit indefinitely with no way of knowing when they might devastate major parts of the planets population and industry is unacceptable.

I deduce DW has a way of deactivating them, presumably from the temple. Therefore I can't see any way that Merlin or anyone will be destroying it.

I can see some kind of penetration raid by Merlin or Nimue (but not both from prudence)posssibly with others.Merlin's state of soul might make it an attractive as well as practical mision.

MWadwell wrote:

n7axw wrote:Hi Matt et. al.,

There is probably merit to how you are projecting people's reaction to a quick conquest would go. But these folk have a pretty infantile faith which they have been frozen into from the start. A shocker like having the temple go down will destroy the faith of a lot of them. For others it will be proof that God wasn't on the temple's side after all. If He had been, He wouldn't have let those nasty heretics win, would He? What I am pointing out is that this is not predicable whatever course of action you take.

Don

What's the saying - "Give me the child, I will give you the man" - attributed to Ignatius Loyola.

Once someone has an established faith, it is very hard to lose it.

It may be weakened, but it will always be there. That is why it takes generations for religious beliefs to weaken to the point of atheism.


To bring this to Safehold, that is why, IMHO, Merlin is pushing the reformist movement, as it is easier to convert people from one sect of a religion to another sect of the same religion, then it is to convert someone to atheism.

There is truth to that, Matt. However Loyola's statement does not stand without qualification. In order for faith to be healthy and secure, people have to be able to ask their questions and integrate what they have been taught on their own terms. The church has to be able to accept that there will be diversity in how faith is integrated. The summons to believe in God has to be heard as an invitation rather than being forced. Re-read Archbishop Mikael's conversation with Irys when she has her little epiphany.

The alternative is a faith that is brittle, uncomfortable when challenged, fragile. People like that either hang on for dear life or find their faith shattered in the face of change.

There really is no need for people on Safehold to give up their faith altogether. They do need to be told the true story of Safehold's beginnings, how the search for God happened on old earth, and that science and faith need not oppose each other. Not all religious people are NeoLuddites!

That being said, you are right that the process will take generations. Where we seem to differ is that I don't see prolonging the war as short circuiting that process in any way. So end the war as soon and as decisively as possible and do not leave hierarchy in place. Then tell the truth amd let the chips fall. All a longer war does is cost more in lives and treasure.

Don

If Merlin thinks he can't operate snarcs near the Temple for fear of being detected, why on earth do people imagine it is possible to sneak a pocket nuke into the Temple? Given what happened to Langhorne one might think the Temple builders would be a tad sensitive about nukes. Whatever people think about the moral question, I just don't see it can be remotely practical.