Information I'd love to know

Manticore is essentially (from the standpoint of the SL) a Verge star nation engaged in a long-standing problem with a neighbor that has a serious sized navy. It does NOT have nor does it want and actively goes out of its way to keep OFS from getting any control over its worm hole termini and firmly sets its own position on those wormholes of its trading partners.

Manticore has already had one very early problem of someone trying to capture its wormhole junction and had been facing the problem of Haven for more than 50 years. Along with a physical Navy as a deterrent to Haven, making its wormhole infrastructure a very tough target is only prudent.

Back in the SL, the systems with wormholes are mostly only concerned with 1) INCOME and 2) traffic control. That is why most of what you find near SL wormholes are LACs and other vessels configured for Customs work. Piracy within the League is not something we are being told about, at least not the kind where some armed ship turns up to capture and carry off a freighter. The League has a lot of navel ships. Showing up to raid a League Member System –even in the unlikely event they don’t heave their own SDF – is going to draw a response from actual warships. Piracy within the League is more the business kind done with pens rather than swords.

To this point the SL and SLN (and OFS) has been mostly concerned with money streams than defense. They could not conceive of some Star Nation taking a wormhole in the League in a military operation because of the retaliation by SLN. What was some system, even one such as Beowulf, going to do, send 5 SDs to take both ends of a wormhole? SLN would send 20 SD against each force and it would be- they think- a slaughter if the “criminal force” attempted to resist with weapons. That has changed.

Amaroq wrote:

cthia wrote:That's what I didn't understand about the Shingaine Convention. It wasn't like Manticore refused trade with anyone. In fact, trade is what made Manticore so wealthy, trade made possible via its terminii.

So I don't see any need for a Convention demanding something always available. Except perhaps in time of war.

Perhaps it was simply another form of control that the League wanted to impose on those weaker than itself. Also, it could be something they whip out when they need to showcase how egalitarian the League is, a sort of "look how enlightened we are, now do what we say, neo-barb".

The Shingaine Convention is a pretty naked piece of Solarian propaganda. It was essentially written by the League for its own advantage, gathering a collection of 'independent' systems to sign a treaty calling for freedom of navigation through wormholes. It was intended purely to browbeat star nations which have wormhole termini and aren't League control (such as a certain little tinpot kingdom out in the Haven Sector) into doing what the League wanted. Crucially, the League never applied the terms of the Convention to termini in League space. One rule for the League, one rule for the barbarians.

SWM wrote:

cthia wrote:That's what I didn't understand about the Shingaine Convention. It wasn't like Manticore refused trade with anyone. In fact, trade is what made Manticore so wealthy, trade made possible via its terminii.

So I don't see any need for a Convention demanding something always available. Except perhaps in time of war.

What makes you think that every owner of a wormhole was allowing full access? It seems to me that some owners probably tried restricting access to only their own ships or restricted access to specific groups. Just because Manticore has been fair about access to the wormhole does not mean that everyone was.

Actually Manticore wasn't allowing free and open access to its wormhole (although they had good reasons for their actions)

As best I recall
• they prohibited use of the Trevor's Star terminus after the system was seized by the Peeps (denying the the economic benefit of the wormhole)
• they had reduced rates for allies and most favored systems
• they cranked up the rated on Erewhon ships after that system signed a treaty with Haven
• they used the treat of denial if access to strong arm the SL into the arms embargo of the first war

Depending on how the Shingaine Convention was written I'd expect most or all of those to violate its terms. (Which is why Manticore wouldn't sign)

Jonathan_S wrote:Actually Manticore wasn't allowing free and open access to its wormhole (although they had good reasons for their actions)

As best I recall
• they prohibited use of the Trevor's Star terminus after the system was seized by the Peeps (denying the the economic benefit of the wormhole)
• they had reduced rates for allies and most favored systems
• they cranked up the rated on Erewhon ships after that system signed a treaty with Haven
• they used the treat of denial if access to strong arm the SL into the arms embargo of the first war

Depending on how the Shingaine Convention was written I'd expect most or all of those to violate its terms. (Which is why Manticore wouldn't sign)

Manticore also banned Havenite shipping from using any of its other termini after the attempt to seize Basilisk.

Jonathan_S wrote:

SWM wrote:What makes you think that every owner of a wormhole was allowing full access? It seems to me that some owners probably tried restricting access to only their own ships or restricted access to specific groups. Just because Manticore has been fair about access to the wormhole does not mean that everyone was.

Actually Manticore wasn't allowing free and open access to its wormhole (although they had good reasons for their actions)

As best I recall
• they prohibited use of the Trevor's Star terminus after the system was seized by the Peeps (denying the the economic benefit of the wormhole)
• they had reduced rates for allies and most favored systems
• they cranked up the rated on Erewhon ships after that system signed a treaty with Haven
• they used the treat of denial if access to strong arm the SL into the arms embargo of the first war

Depending on how the Shingaine Convention was written I'd expect most or all of those to violate its terms. (Which is why Manticore wouldn't sign)

What I recall is that Manticore did not ban Haven from using the wormhole until the war started. [edit]In fact, in OBS, Frankel says that three-quarters of Haven's foreign trade goes through the Manticore Junction.[/edit] I don't think even the Shingaine Convention would require you to open your wormhole to enemy ships in the middle of a war.

I doubt that altering the shipping rates for particular customers is automatically a violation of the Shingaine Convention.

Denial of Solarian shipping would probably be a violation of the Convention. I'd be curious to see what provisions the Convention has about nations in a state of war, though, in particular about states who are aiding the enemy.

SWM wrote:What I recall is that Manticore did not ban Haven from using the wormhole until the war started. [edit]In fact, in OBS, Frankel says that three-quarters of Haven's foreign trade goes through the Manticore Junction.[/edit] I don't think even the Shingaine Convention would require you to open your wormhole to enemy ships in the middle of a war.

I doubt that altering the shipping rates for particular customers is automatically a violation of the Shingaine Convention.

Denial of Solarian shipping would probably be a violation of the Convention. I'd be curious to see what provisions the Convention has about nations in a state of war, though, in particular about states who are aiding the enemy.

Manticore isn't a signatory in any case, so they can say they're not bound by it. The Solarian view is that the signing of the Convention establishes an interstellar norm that everyone should abide by. Pay no attention to those termini in the League where access is restricted.

Dafmeister wrote:Manticore isn't a signatory in any case, so they can say they're not bound by it. The Solarian view is that the signing of the Convention establishes an interstellar norm that everyone should abide by. Pay no attention to those termini in the League where access is restricted.

Yeah, we know that. Cthia was wondering why the League thought the Shingaine Convention was necessary at all since Manticore was already allowing access to all (at the time the Convention was written). Jonathan disagreed that Manticore was allowing the kind of access the Shingaine Convention was intended to provide, while I think they were (mostly, except for the threat to close out the League if they continued selling arms to Haven). Somewhat of a side issue, but related to the League's desire for the Convention and Manticore's refusal to sign.

SWM wrote:Yeah, we know that. Cthia was wondering why the League thought the Shingaine Convention was necessary at all since Manticore was already allowing access to all (at the time the Convention was written). Jonathan disagreed that Manticore was allowing the kind of access the Shingaine Convention was intended to provide, while I think they were (mostly, except for the threat to close out the League if they continued selling arms to Haven). Somewhat of a side issue, but related to the League's desire for the Convention and Manticore's refusal to sign.

On a slight tangent, I wonder what the GA attitude towards those Solarian arms dealers is. The RoH might turn evidence of their side of the arms deals over to Manticore as proof that the League had in fact violated that agreement. Since the RoH now has most of the RMN's researchers working in its facilities...

Of course, Laocoon I already delivered on the promised retaliation for any such violations. But still, it's one of those loose ends - I can't believe Haven managed to keep evidence out of Manticore's hands for over a decade nor that Manticore let it knowingly go on. Admittedly, Monica was a more blatant case of arms dealing.

Manticore didn't restrict the use of the Junction to the Peeps until after the attempt to take over Medusa (On Basilisk Station). Then the restriction applied only to the People's Navy.

Don

munroburton wrote:<<SNIP>>
Of course, Laocoon I already delivered on the promised retaliation for any such violations. But still, it's one of those loose ends - I can't believe Haven managed to keep evidence out of Manticore's hands for over a decade nor that Manticore let it knowingly go on. Admittedly, Monica was a more blatant case of arms dealing.

All they were really after was to keep the SL government out of the arms business. They did that. All the tech transfers were "private businesses". After all, that was Anton's job when he was stationed in New Chicago at the start of "From the Highlands". And they did retaliate. They kept raising the wormhole transit fees on SL cargos.