Compare George R. R. Martin to DW ?

Pick up the Shannara sears and try to keep thinking about yet another author who is trying to write a three volume series of magic and elves and…….. ( () () () Tolkin spinning in grave)

Brigade XO wrote:Pick up the Shannara sears and try to keep thinking about yet another author who is trying to write a three volume series of magic and elves and…….. ( () () () Tolkin spinning in grave)

"yet another"?


Have you actually read the books? Or know the story? While not one of my favorites, it´s certainly not just "yet another" anything.

GRRM put a new sample chapter of The Winds of Winter up on his page yesterday and his server broke down under the resulting onslaught

It is a great chapter.

No one would take that bet since it's nearly impossible by now that he'll be able to stay ahead of the TV series.

However he supposedly has given David Benioff and D.B. Weiss a week-long briefing lately on his planned plot for the last two books so they can go ahead with seasons 5-7 without having to wait for him to finish the books.

Ensign Re-read wrote:Wow. It's been a while.

I just saw the DVD version of GOT's season three.

(Still have not read the books.)

Does anyone know if Las Vegas, etc. is/are taking bets on if R.R. Martin will write fast enough to prevent an interruption in the series' filming?

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Brigade XO wrote:Pick up the Shannara sears and try to keep thinking about yet another author who is trying to write a three volume series of magic and elves and…….. ( () () () Tolkin spinning in grave)

I'll grant that it does have similarities to Tolkien's work, but so does pretty much any High Fantasy book you pick up today. However, despite some surface similarities, it's quite different from Tolkien. For one, it's not a world in ascent, but one in decline. In fact, it's evident from I think the third or fourth book that the setting is actually not in the medieval past in a different realm. As well, everything changes from book to book, which is one of the reasons I enjoyed it thoroughly.

If you want to talk about writers who have mimed Tolkien, I can name about half a dozen writers who more closely copied Tolkien, starting with David Eddings' Belgariad and Malloreon series. Not only did he rewrite the plot of Lord of the Rings, he did it twice. Sure, it was missing elves and dwarves, but that's about it. Everything else is pretty much in it's place, including a Dark Lord who's awakening from his slumber after millennia. It is not a bad pair of series, but it definitely ripped off huge chunks of Tolkien's works and repurposed them.

Or, another, The Deed of Paksenarrion series by Elizabeth Moon? It was unabashedly a rewrite, it was intentionally written with Tolkien in mind. It also happens to be my favorite fantasy series, by far, because of how she portrays her characters. It follows a fairly similar plot structure as well, though it's much looser than Eddings was.

A more modern take on Tolkien was the Wheel of Time series. It actually took inspiration not from just Tolkien, but also from a science fiction source as well, Dune. The Aes Sedai were partially modeled after the Bene Gesserit sisterhood in Frank Herbert's Dune. They operate in similar fashions, they are both distrustful of men and quite distrusted at large, though allowed to operate freely. They even have a very similar rhythm and cadence. But as far as the universe is, Tolkien himself could have fashioned it. Magic, medieval swords and sorcery, an impending doom, the epic quest... sounds a bit familiar.

Being Westerners, we are more attuned to the various memes being cycled and recycled in most fantasy literature.

Tolkien was a scholar of early and middle Germanic languages as well as an exceptionally talented writer, so he was much closer to the sources than many readers may realize. The subplot of the King of Rohan being depressed and unable to function echo's the condition of the King in Beowulf, who is also rendered dysfunctional by his inability to stop the monster Grendel, for example. The numinous "One Ring" has its mirror in the various tales that eventually made up Wagner's "Ring Cycle" operas, and Germanic myths are full of Dragons, Dwarfs and other magical creatures.

Now if an equally talented writer were to start a fantasy cycle based on the Hindu Mahabharata, I'm sure that it would get far less traction, since much of the Western and particularly North American audience would respond with a "Huh?" We simply would not recognize or respond to may of the memes contained within.

You can also see how cross pollination works with Japanese stories, particularly those set in the Middle Ages. We respond to stories of Ronin swordslingers like "Lone Wolf and Cub" more because we are mentally converting them into "Westerns", much like the "Magnificent Seven" is a remade version of "The Seven Samurai". (While the movie is a pretty obvious conversion, the various memes of the lone gunslinger/lone swordsman are easy enough to absorb without too much thought). OTOH, more complex stories rooted in Japanese culture and history, like "Kagemusha" are also more difficult for western audiences to absorb.

So the point might not be that "everyone is ripping Tolkien off", but rather writers are reaching for familiar ideas that they and their audiences can access.

For one, it's not a world in ascent, but one in decline. In fact, it's evident from I think the third or fourth book that the setting is actually not in the medieval past in a different realm.

There´s also the little "hint" based on how the prequel series "Word & Void" is set in present day Illinois.

And how the lands in the Shannara series is a post-apocalyptic North America.

Even in the first book there are enough hints to figure out that it´s ~USA and post-apocalyptic.
And it´s pretty much just the first book that looks a LOT like Tolkien. Which is why i don´t like ALL of it being called ripoff or whatever, as it seriously is NOT.

If you want to talk about writers who have mimed Tolkien, I can name about half a dozen writers who more closely copied Tolkien, starting with David Eddings' Belgariad and Malloreon series. Not only did he rewrite the plot of Lord of the Rings, he did it twice.

While i agree somewhat, it´s actually more a matter of how he writes based on a "formula".
He is completely open about this and if you read his own commentary about writing, well it´s not so much copying Tolkien, but copying the underlying structure, which he intentionally has made his standard blueprint.

Which is REALLY annoying.

Or, another, The Deed of Paksenarrion series by Elizabeth Moon? It was unabashedly a rewrite, it was intentionally written with Tolkien in mind.

Eh?

Tenshinai wrote:

Or, another, The Deed of Paksenarrion series by Elizabeth Moon? It was unabashedly a rewrite, it was intentionally written with Tolkien in mind.

Eh?

It really was. If you look at the setting, the plot and the structure, she basically took Tolkien and rearranged the furniture. There are some new arrangements all of her own, but the story just as easily could have been set in Middle Earth. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it, since it tells the story from a unique and interesting perspective. As well, the plot structure is pretty loosely based on Lord of the Rings, it's much looser than you'd find with, say, Eddings. For one, there's no world-swallowing evil, and there's no singular "quest" she's on. Nor does she leave home with any idea of stopping evil and saving the world, she just wants to be a soldier.

Tenshinai wrote:

For one, it's not a world in ascent, but one in decline. In fact, it's evident from I think the third or fourth book that the setting is actually not in the medieval past in a different realm.

There´s also the little "hint" based on how the prequel series "Word & Void" is set in present day Illinois.

And how the lands in the Shannara series is a post-apocalyptic North America.

Even in the first book there are enough hints to figure out that it´s ~USA and post-apocalyptic.
And it´s pretty much just the first book that looks a LOT like Tolkien. Which is why i don´t like ALL of it being called ripoff or whatever, as it seriously is NOT.

I was trying to avoid going into detail for those who haven't read it, but yes. The first books do look a lot like Tolkien, but as the series progresses, he drifts further from that standard and creates an entire world all of his own. That series you mentioned has so little to do with Tolkienish fantasy, and even the strictly fantasy series abandoned most of Tolkien by, I think, the third or fourth book.

If you want to talk about writers who have mimed Tolkien, I can name about half a dozen writers who more closely copied Tolkien, starting with David Eddings' Belgariad and Malloreon series. Not only did he rewrite the plot of Lord of the Rings, he did it twice.

Tenshinai wrote:While I agree somewhat, it´s actually more a matter of how he writes based on a "formula".
He is completely open about this and if you read his own commentary about writing, well it´s not so much copying Tolkien, but copying the underlying structure, which he intentionally has made his standard blueprint.

Which is REALLY annoying.

But he still did copy it. He basically gutted the house but kept the roof and framing. The underlying plot is almost exactly the same. A young boy, or man, inherits a great power, and must go on a quest to defeat the Dark Lord. He leaves all he loves behind, and with the help of a powerful artifact and powerful friends, he saves the world from Darkness. While Eddings goes about the ending differently, the underlying plot is pretty much spot on for both series.

I agree with the annoyance. As much as I enjoyed them as an introduction to fantasy, I dislike how closely he followed the formula. I can't read them now without seeing it. I don't much care for how he trivialized the violence. It's incredibly casual, and almost beside the point in the series.

My point is, they all followed Tolkien a lot more closely than Sword of Shannara did. While he may have started with a Tolkienish fantasy, he went in an utterly different and unique direction that resembles Tolkien about as much as I resemble a penguin.

Sorry, i simply cannot agree. By that argument, you can claim almost any book be a "copy" of another.

but the story just as easily could have been set in Middle Earth.

Where exactly in Middle earth do you have anything like Aarenis?

Yes there is a "lost civilisation" sort of in both, as well as in literally hundreds of other stories, and they have little to no commonality.

Elves and dwarves exist in both, sure, but that´s true in many other places as well, and they don´t really have all that much in common.
Dwarves probably the most but even there it´s obvious it´s not a copy.

And if you try to claim Paks as a knockoff of Frodo, then i will probably laugh because of how little they have in common.

Where´s the magelords in Tolkiens books? Heck, where´s the magicians or people with power? Tolkien pretty much only has the Maiar.

Orchs and other nasties are more of a sideshow in Paks world...

Paladins doesn´t exist, nor does any of the orders, Gird, Falk etc...

One story is The Great Quest, the other is a Becoming. So they´re not the same at even the most basic level.


Now, the thing is, i have gamemastered RPGs in BOTH of these worlds, and they´re simply so different that there´s no comparison either in original story, structure or setting, unless you fiddle things around so much that practically all books are "copies" of others.

In the end the question becomes, how many differences do you want to bother stating?
Because if you start trying to say what is the SAME between the stories, you will get in trouble soon.

she just wants to be a soldier.

Wants to be a hero but can´t believe that she can become one.

As well, the plot structure is pretty loosely based on Lord of the Rings

How exactly? Oh yeah, someone leaves home and ends up in various adventures.
That´s about it for similarities. That´s NOT "based on".

Tenshinai wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:Pick up the Shannara sears and try to keep thinking about yet another author who is trying to write a three volume series of magic and elves and…….. ( () () () Tolkin spinning in grave)

"yet another"?


Have you actually read the books? Or know the story? While not one of my favorites, it´s certainly not just "yet another" anything.

Yes, the first three as published and then at least the next two sometime later. It was 30ish years ago. I also read - in that time frame- probably 40 of the various Star Treck paperbacks. Was much happier (than the Shannara books) reading the Pern books as they came out.