Spoiler what to do with the Gold?

Yes and no. Experince with steam powered ground vehicles will be useful, but more than that must go into steam tanks. Some way to keep the fires burning while in battle without boiling the crew, letting in enemy fire, or boiling the crew and a turrent with a breech loading gun with some way to dampen recoil are needed. The logistics/transport requirement would be huge, and it would be stuck if it rains. Plus it would only be useful in an open field battle.

Considering how much each tank would cost in resources and serious engineering requirements, I think steam tanks are out for now. I doubt that tanks will be viable until after Go4 is gone. There is a reason why steam powered non-rail vehicles never took off. But steam powered/assisted mining sounds viable.

Henry Brown wrote:I also think the scope of the Silverlode mining project provides an excellent opportunity for Howsmyn to undertake new R&D project on things such as steam shovels, steam powered bulldozers, steam excavators ect... Such machines would be incredibly useful in mining Silverlode island. They would also be useful in other applications such as rebuilding canals and roads in western Siddarmark once it is liberated.

I also think that developing the technology now for steam powered earth moving equipment has potential future military benefits. There has been discussion in other threads about the possibility of steam tanks. Now, I think that steam tanks would be a bit of a stretch to build right now. Furthermore, the military situation doesn't really seem to call for steam tanks right now.

But I think many of the techniques and machinery for building earthmoving equipment could transfer to making tanks if necessary. So if Charis goes ahead and does the R&D needed to make say, a steam bulldozer, then I think they would be in a much better position to make a steam tank in the future if it is needed.

Admiral_G wrote:Yes and no. Experince with steam powered ground vehicles will be useful, but more than that must go into steam tanks. Some way to keep the fires burning while in battle without boiling the crew, letting in enemy fire, or boiling the crew and a turrent with a breech loading gun with some way to dampen recoil are needed. The logistics/transport requirement would be huge, and it would be stuck if it rains. Plus it would only be useful in an open field battle.

Considering how much each tank would cost in resources and serious engineering requirements, I think steam tanks are out for now. I doubt that tanks will be viable until after Go4 is gone. There is a reason why steam powered non-rail vehicles never took off. But steam powered/assisted mining sounds viable.

Actually, there were steam powered cars early in the history of automotive development. However, you are correct that they never really took off. The reason is that the internal combustion engine eclipsed the steam engine in performance fairly early in the 20th century.

However, almost all internal combustion engines require some form of electricity, which is not currently possible in Safehold. Due to the artificial constrains of Safehold on the use of electricity, I think we will see a greater variety and number of non-rail steam powered vehicles than we saw in the real world. Unless of course the CoG is totally defeated in the next book or 2, the Proscriptions are overthrown, and electricity becomes viable.

And the reason combustion engines eclipsed steam is gas is a much better fuel for a mobile engine than coal. I doubt steam tanks will take off, for reasons I already stated. However, steam would be better at heavy, semi-mobile, industrial applications than that tank, and that, and ships, are where I expect to see the most innovation.

Henry Brown wrote:

Admiral_G wrote:Yes and no. Experince with steam powered ground vehicles will be useful, but more than that must go into steam tanks. Some way to keep the fires burning while in battle without boiling the crew, letting in enemy fire, or boiling the crew and a turrent with a breech loading gun with some way to dampen recoil are needed. The logistics/transport requirement would be huge, and it would be stuck if it rains. Plus it would only be useful in an open field battle.

Considering how much each tank would cost in resources and serious engineering requirements, I think steam tanks are out for now. I doubt that tanks will be viable until after Go4 is gone. There is a reason why steam powered non-rail vehicles never took off. But steam powered/assisted mining sounds viable.

Actually, there were steam powered cars early in the history of automotive development. However, you are correct that they never really took off. The reason is that the internal combustion engine eclipsed the steam engine in performance fairly early in the 20th century.

However, almost all internal combustion engines require some form of electricity, which is not currently possible in Safehold. Due to the artificial constrains of Safehold on the use of electricity, I think we will see a greater variety and number of non-rail steam powered vehicles than we saw in the real world. Unless of course the CoG is totally defeated in the next book or 2, the Proscriptions are overthrown, and electricity becomes viable.

While there are many things that can be done with the gold, I think that if they are careful then can use a multitude of problems to solve each other. First, is the excellent observation that Siddermark is going to require some major infrastructure repair and improvement which will cost a bundle. There is the opportunity to do a little goodwill spending via Marshall Plan. Looking deeper into that question you have a large number of people who have been displaced, historically this has led people to pick up new vocations and skills. In this case I think if cayleb is on the ball he would offer asylum and settlement rights to people wishing to flee the mainland, settle them on silverlode, and get them to mining using a handle full of experienced miners and some of Howysmens technicians to start industrializing the process. Thus he gets a labor pool, which is also indebted to the house of Ahrmak. The gold they use can be directed to further improving R&D.

In the long long term maybe a canal for major ships through the gulf of Jarhas to Salthar Bay, thus cutting transit times and creating another trade zone. Although using steam power, and high grade explosives should expedite construction.

Admiral_G wrote:And the reason combustion engines eclipsed steam is gas is a much better fuel for a mobile engine than coal. I doubt steam tanks will take off, for reasons I already stated. However, steam would be better at heavy, semi-mobile, industrial applications than that tank, and that, and ships, are where I expect to see the most innovation.

Hey, I agree. There are good technical reasons that in the historical real world steam saw use primarily in railroad and ships. But you also have to work with what is available and right now due to the Proscription's ban on electricity the internal combustion engine is not viable.

My point is that since steam is pretty much the only option right now, then any mobile machinery Charis wants to build *must* be steam powered. These steam machines might be larger, heavier, slower, and/or more dangerous than an otherwise comparable, historical internal combustion vehicle. But it is the only option available till electricity becomes usable.

All this has been hashed over in the "Steam Tank" thread. RFC pretty much promised at least one of his series would see one. He was as eloquent in his passions as usual when defending the concept. If we actually see a Cold War develop between the CoGA and Charis, the steam tank is almost certain. We will also see the Doble style car and associated steam driven machines.

Henry Brown wrote:

Admiral_G wrote:And the reason combustion engines eclipsed steam is gas is a much better fuel for a mobile engine than coal. I doubt steam tanks will take off, for reasons I already stated. However, steam would be better at heavy, semi-mobile, industrial applications than that tank, and that, and ships, are where I expect to see the most innovation.

Hey, I agree. There are good technical reasons that in the historical real world steam saw use primarily in railroad and ships. But you also have to work with what is available and right now due to the Proscription's ban on electricity the internal combustion engine is not viable.

My point is that since steam is pretty much the only option right now, then any mobile machinery Charis wants to build *must* be steam powered. These steam machines might be larger, heavier, slower, and/or more dangerous than an otherwise comparable, historical internal combustion vehicle. But it is the only option available till electricity becomes usable.

jgnfld wrote:All the gold in the world cannot suddenly provide for a pool of labor to build, equip, resource, and operate all this industry unless the gold can buy that labor food and other basic necessities. I have seen little at the moment that says that Safehold can suddenly support all these additional single, even double, digit percents of people away from the farms. Is there really that much spare capacity in the food supply? And the suppliers of other basic necessities?

Even Pre-Jihad Charis had animal powered mechanical reapers and combines. They were widely used on Charis but had only started to be used a little in parts of Siddarmark. Getting them widely used everywhere should be one of the first priorities for rebuilding. Then you will have as much or more agricultural production than before and a shedload of available labour for other things, and that's before you add steam power to that mix.

IMO it will only require brute manpower to initiate the Silver and Gold production. Remember how the hard rock mines of Glacierheart are scattered and worm through the mountains and textev of one mine running into an unknown other tunnel. They know how to mine and there isn't a real need for industrialization. The new steel itself will advance the common mining practice through improved tools.

Industrial production at high volume is not something that would help the situation. Production of a ton or two of Silver per month would not impact the economies to any great extent at first. The infrastructure would not be a huge burden.

Three prime initial uses for the silver would be
- purchase of war materials & supplies
- payments to soldiers & families of deceased soldiers
- intergovernmental transfers of capital - loans/bribes/aid

Wealth is in the ground, taken with a cautious approach and at a non-greedy pace it would take a while to draw a lot of attenton.

dwileye13 wrote:Wealth is in the ground, taken with a cautious approach and at a non-greedy pace it would take a while to draw a lot of attenton.

The bonds issued by the RC treasury that were mentioned in LaMA have already opened a venue (albeit via a backdoor)for the silver to enter Safehold's economy, or at least the CE's economy. Since the bonds are essentially backed by the precious metals in Silverlode, that silver is already in circulation at Yr. 896/897 prices. That alone will help to spread out the impact of the strike.

SCLibrarian wrote:

dwileye13 wrote:Wealth is in the ground, taken with a cautious approach and at a non-greedy pace it would take a while to draw a lot of attenton.

The bonds issued by the RC treasury that were mentioned in LaMA have already opened a venue (albeit via a backdoor)for the silver to enter Safehold's economy, or at least the CE's economy. Since the bonds are essentially backed by the precious metals in Silverlode, that silver is already in circulation at Yr. 896/897 prices. That alone will help to spread out the impact of the strike.

I wonder if this will be the new high denomination currency? Zero coupon bonds issued at a discount equal to the base interest rate. Upon maturity the bonds can beredeemed for silver or gold. There doesn't have to be a time limit on when the bond might be redeemed. It effectively becomes a bearer gold certificate worth a certain amount of gold or silver. Cayleb stores the gold and silver for anyone who doesn't wish to redeem his certificates.

As time goes by the denomination of these certificates becomes smaller and smaller. As the certificates become more available in the economy the velocity of money increases as paper is easier to move around and transefer than heavy metal coins.