Madame Aivah Pahrsahn

BarryKirk wrote:Sorry I brought it up. Consider this horse beaten into hamburger.

Oh, I don't know. I thought it was fun while it lasted, even if it did get on the nerves of our elders... Besides, who knows how all of this will turn out except RFC? Certainly not our elders, after all. By the way, I, for one, have no trouble with Aivah being uber-smart. What else she might be, we will just have to wait and see...

Don

Oh, no need to apologize, and I personally apologize for getting a little snippy. I am a fan of Occam's Razor, even if one cannot entirely apply it to fictional works at times. The sheer convoluted ways in which some folks apply theories just makes me boggle, that's all.

As for Aivah herself, I personally doubt she's anything special in that sense. She's not a PICA, or part of a hidden column of Shan-Wei, or anything like that. She may have a tidbit of technology, as Weber has hinted that there are bits here or there, including possibly monitoring things in the Temple itself. But if she does, she likely looks at it like the Wylsyns did, rather than knowing it as simple Federation Technology - an artifact of the Archangels or such.

Frankly, I think her /not/ being some support column or super special person in that way makes her more worthy of respect. She lacks those advantages and her results are the result of sheer competence because not only was she trained at a young age in spycraft (the books mention that most children of vicars are to an extent) but she's really, REALLY smart. I'd peg her at Nahrman level. She likely lacks his intuitive spark, but is far, far more comprehensive and patient.

SPOILER








very crazy theory...

Aivah is not only a PICA, she is Shan wei's PICA.

The negative evidence against this that Adorai knew her as a young child does not mean anything. Enough changes from childhood/youth to adulthood that only those who knew Aivah as a late adolescent would not be fooled by a good imposter who "comes back".

Also, we know now that Shan-wei had sufficient materials to construct PICA's b/c otherwise Owl would not have been able to construct Nimue.

I know, I am crazy.

Patentmike

No spoiler needed. Back in A Mighty Fortress we have her thoughts about the Punishment. They weren't the thoughts of a PICA. They were the thoughts of somebody who would fear undergoing the Punishment.

Oh, as for being crazy, everybody here is somewhat crazy.

Except for me.

Patentmike wrote::o

SPOILER








very crazy theory...

Aivah is not only a PICA, she is Shan wei's PICA.

The negative evidence against this that Adorai knew her as a young child does not mean anything. Enough changes from childhood/youth to adulthood that only those who knew Aivah as a late adolescent would not be fooled by a good imposter who "comes back".

Also, we know now that Shan-wei had sufficient materials to construct PICA's b/c otherwise Owl would not have been able to construct Nimue.

I know, I am crazy.

Patentmike

BarryKirk wrote:Perhaps, she is a descendent of one of the archangels that has access to some TF tech..

This might be possible, more specifically the access to TF tech.

Aivah had, and continues to have, access to a large amount of information that a decent Grand Inquisitor would want. Now it could have come from the Wylsynns, but an alternative idea has come to me.

At one point during LAMA Maigwair thinks about a rumour that the Inquisition could listen to conversations anywhere in the temple, but he largely discounts it because Clyntahn would've killed far more people.

Now consider that if such a system did exist it would need some way of interacting with with people who truly believe in the Proscriptions, but whom are prepared to accept certain "magical" features of the Temple (the magic seats, the perfect temperature etc). So maybe the Temple is laced with monitoring systems which feed into a reasonably smart expert system (i.e. not a true AI, just something that can spot keywords in communication and the like).

But that leaves it needing a way of communicating with the humans, maybe something similar to the original communicator units Merlin gave Cayleb and Sharleyan? A holographic (non-specific) angel who reveals truths about the misdeeds of the Vicars (and staffs) would probably be believed? (There'd need to be instructions relating to recharging it.)

Now supposed that the reason Clyntahn hasn't killed off even more people in the Tempe is that he doesn't have the remote, Aivah does? That would leave questions as to how come Owl hasn't spotted the either the remote of the transmissions to it, not to mention how Aivah "acquired it" (Ahem!) of course.

(Nb: I'm not suggesting she has access to it as a communicator to/from Zion, merely that she performs the proper ritual and an angel appears and recites the latest summary.)

PalmerSperry wrote:

BarryKirk wrote:Perhaps, she is a descendent of one of the archangels that has access to some TF tech..

This might be possible, more specifically the access to TF tech.

Aivah had, and continues to have, access to a large amount of information that a decent Grand Inquisitor would want. Now it could have come from the Wylsynns, but an alternative idea has come to me.

At one point during LAMA Maigwair thinks about a rumour that the Inquisition could listen to conversations anywhere in the temple, but he largely discounts it because Clyntahn would've killed far more people.

Now consider that if such a system did exist it would need some way of interacting with with people who truly believe in the Proscriptions, but whom are prepared to accept certain "magical" features of the Temple (the magic seats, the perfect temperature etc). So maybe the Temple is laced with monitoring systems which feed into a reasonably smart expert system (i.e. not a true AI, just something that can spot keywords in communication and the like).

But that leaves it needing a way of communicating with the humans, maybe something similar to the original communicator units Merlin gave Cayleb and Sharleyan? A holographic (non-specific) angel who reveals truths about the misdeeds of the Vicars (and staffs) would probably be believed? (There'd need to be instructions relating to recharging it.)

Now supposed that the reason Clyntahn hasn't killed off even more people in the Tempe is that he doesn't have the remote, Aivah does? That would leave questions as to how come Owl hasn't spotted the either the remote of the transmissions to it, not to mention how Aivah "acquired it" (Ahem!) of course.

(Nb: I'm not suggesting she has access to it as a communicator to/from Zion, merely that she performs the proper ritual and an angel appears and recites the latest summary.)

Aivah was the secret keeper for the Wylsynn Circle and was mostly secret within that circle. It seems she was part of what was being protected by the fratricide of the Wylsynns (besides the Key and Verifier). It was my opinion she had access to the bugs in the Temple and I believe that access was outside the Wylsynn’s available technology. It could be she needs to get back to Zion to access the take from those bugs? A lot of assumptions but they lead me to the concept of a greater conspiracy aligned with ‘The Fallen’. Plus I like the idea of conspiracies and secret circles.

The woman has skills, knowledge, drive and an obvious grudge as well as an incredible amount of assets for 23 years of saving/business and 50 years of life. It is also pleasant to have someone turn the tables on Merlin and have the advantage. Aivah will have to give and take in this exchange.

Thank You RFC, you are the Consummate Serial Tease, we all await your delightful torture.

One possibility may be a hereditary group similar to the Wilson's being passed down the female line - mother to daughter, surnames change each generation to tracing by family name is difficult (unless you are Icelandic...). We have heard about the fathers occupation but not the mothers connections (or foster mother).

Police have enough problems now chasing female fugitives who marry after absconding. This is even harder if you don't know you need to look.

Here is a theory that doesn't require her to be a cybernetic life form or over a hundred years old. She was an illegitimate daughter of a grand vicar. And as such was treated cruelly and unfairly by a father who she learned to revile. This led her to a view of the CoGA that showed what it had become. As she grew up she entered into the occupation of courtesan, where she would have the unfortunate pleasure of receiving the patronage of an up and coming vicar one Zaspar Clyntan. I get the impression that she might have had the opportunity to end his life or career in the past but didn't for some reason. Later in life she would end up working with the Wylsns circle to document the wrongs of the church. Thus when she asks Merlin to at some point take her back to Zion (LAMA) one more time, I think it is to pay one more visit to her old acquaintance Zasphar to, under the guise of her old occupation, end him.

Cyphen.2000 wrote:Here is a theory that doesn't require her to be a cybernetic life form or over a hundred years old. She was an illegitimate daughter of a grand vicar. And as such was treated cruelly and unfairly by a father who she learned to revile. This led her to a view of the CoGA that showed what it had become. As she grew up she entered into the occupation of courtesan, where she would have the unfortunate pleasure of receiving the patronage of an up and coming vicar one Zaspar Clyntan. I get the impression that she might have had the opportunity to end his life or career in the past but didn't for some reason. Later in life she would end up working with the Wylsns circle to document the wrongs of the church. Thus when she asks Merlin to at some point take her back to Zion (LAMA) one more time, I think it is to pay one more visit to her old acquaintance Zasphar to, under the guise of her old occupation, end him.

Your speculation is interesting.

I believe Aivah is much more than what we as readers have been allocated by the Consummate Serial Tease himself.

It would take more than an extraordinary courtisan to become one of the wealthiest women (or individuals) on Safehold. However, I think she is just that, an extraordinary woman with some rarified connections and some sort of advantage we have yet to see. She was respected and honored by the Wylsynns, Vicars of the Church, not for her beauty and occupation, but for her organization and histories. She was a prime reason(IMHO) a Vicar killed his Brother, in order to protect secrets. AIVAH held secrets!

She has a real need to get (on short notice) to Zion.She met Merlin in his room (in effect pulling a Merlin on him and presenting herself in a very intimate manner. Aivah doesn't realize Merlin is at the core a Woman so her opening of the negotiations and exchange are not quite at her advantage as she thinks, but she does have Merlin on his heels to some extent.

I think this is a great scene with humorous potential and a chance for the view into another Circle

Note that she's not merely a courtesan. She was the daughter of a vicar, and we're told that they are given lots of education for politics, including subterfuge/spy stuff. Even as a bastard child, she was likely given the full education.

She has training, innate intelligence, and likely through her father (even if he doesn't acknowledge her, who he knew would serve as a good nucleus for later), connections.

Not surprising she expanded it a lot over the years.