SPOILER - Temple steel quality

Zhwaigair noted that Charisian steel in their rifles was harder and tougher than any steel he had ever seen before.

Clyntahn acquired drawings for an open hearth furnace.

The question is, will the temple be able to duplicate the metallurgy that Chairs is using? Will they know enough to add Nickel and other metal to make their steel hard and tough?

BarryKirk wrote:Zhwaigair noted that Charisian steel in their rifles was harder and tougher than any steel he had ever seen before.

Clyntahn acquired drawings for an open hearth furnace.

The question is, will the temple be able to duplicate the metallurgy that Chairs is using? Will they know enough to add Nickel and other metal to make their steel hard and tough?

Probably. He has the formula along with the description of steam engines. But he still has problems, the first being whether or not he can produce it in useful quanities. Secondly, he is dealing with a moving target. By the time he suceeds in duplicating the formula he has stolen, Howsmyn will have improved it yet again. We've seen this same pattern for artillery, small arms and ships. The temple always is behind the curve because they are imitating rather than innovating.

Don

I would not be so harsh as to say there is NO innovation, the new temple rifle is proof that the Temple Lands have people that could innovate. The difference is that in Charis those that come up with a brilliant idea have both a method to reach people who can improve it and fund the experimentation. Somehow I doubt the CoGA has anything like that as the office to approach is likely the Inquisition, which is more likely to torture you (and your family) for questioning the Writ as they see it.

Besides neither of the 2 CoGA innovators we know of so far are making money off their innovations, clearly not the case in Charis where good ideas can make your fortune. In point of fact in the temple lands being noted as an innovator is more likely to get you killed from hate mobs, reactionary nobles or irate inquisitors.

The temple can likely produce the steel, it would however be an interesting question on whether they could afford to do so. Making these furnaces takes time and if they are rebuilding furnaces their current production will cease. Clyntahn IMO will likely decide that as the steel is NOT necessary to make equivalent Charisian weapons and that banning or restricting it will be more useful in smearing Charis. Shortsighted of him but then Charis has the advantage of OWL, so can see the necessity of large amounts of steel some time in the future. The CoGA is sort of always thinking of just being able to match the weapons Charis uses. ATM the only reason that I feel would get Clyntahn to sign off on steel is that its the only way to build ships able to fight Charis again.

Sort of a moot point as we know what is going to happen to the last CoGA navy has left...

CJK wrote:I would not be so harsh as to say there is NO innovation, the new temple rifle is proof that the Temple Lands have people that could innovate. The difference is that in Charis those that come up with a brilliant idea have both a method to reach people who can improve it and fund the experimentation. Somehow I doubt the CoGA has anything like that as the office to approach is likely the Inquisition, which is more likely to torture you (and your family) for questioning the Writ as they see it.

Besides neither of the 2 CoGA innovators we know of so far are making money off their innovations, clearly not the case in Charis where good ideas can make your fortune. In point of fact in the temple lands being noted as an innovator is more likely to get you killed from hate mobs, reactionary nobles or irate inquisitors.

The temple can likely produce the steel, it would however be an interesting question on whether they could afford to do so. Making these furnaces takes time and if they are rebuilding furnaces their current production will cease. Clyntahn IMO will likely decide that as the steel is NOT necessary to make equivalent Charisian weapons and that banning or restricting it will be more useful in smearing Charis. Shortsighted of him but then Charis has the advantage of OWL, so can see the necessity of large amounts of steel some time in the future. The CoGA is sort of always thinking of just being able to match the weapons Charis uses. ATM the only reason that I feel would get Clyntahn to sign off on steel is that its the only way to build ships able to fight Charis again.

Sort of a moot point as we know what is going to happen to the last CoGA navy has left...

Clyntahn will sign of on any innovation that he can be convinced is necessary. When their mortar-substitute is proven to be far too short-ranged to be of any practical use, he'll have to agree then (if not long before). Indeed, Clyntahn's sole concern is protecting his intelligence sources and covering up the source of the new drawings he's acquired (as stated in HFAF).

But I agree that the Go4 is running out of time. With the defeat of the Royal Dohlaran Army and decimation of the Imperial Desnarian Army, they are likely to face a great deal of internal unrest in both realms (even without any nudging on the part of the Inner Circle). The allies will likely strike Gorath at the beginning of HFQ which may as Sharleyan commented motivate South Harchong to secede. If that happens one has to wonder how well Clyntahn's relationship with Harchong might fare, especially when their priorities shift.

CJK wrote:I would not be so harsh as to say there is NO innovation, the new temple rifle is proof that the Temple Lands have people that could innovate. The difference is that in Charis those that come up with a brilliant idea have both a method to reach people who can improve it and fund the experimentation. Somehow I doubt the CoGA has anything like that as the office to approach is likely the Inquisition, which is more likely to torture you (and your family) for questioning the Writ as they see it.

Besides neither of the 2 CoGA innovators we know of so far are making money off their innovations, clearly not the case in Charis where good ideas can make your fortune. In point of fact in the temple lands being noted as an innovator is more likely to get you killed from hate mobs, reactionary nobles or irate inquisitors.

The temple can likely produce the steel, it would however be an interesting question on whether they could afford to do so. Making these furnaces takes time and if they are rebuilding furnaces their current production will cease. Clyntahn IMO will likely decide that as the steel is NOT necessary to make equivalent Charisian weapons and that banning or restricting it will be more useful in smearing Charis. Shortsighted of him but then Charis has the advantage of OWL, so can see the necessity of large amounts of steel some time in the future. The CoGA is sort of always thinking of just being able to match the weapons Charis uses. ATM the only reason that I feel would get Clyntahn to sign off on steel is that its the only way to build ships able to fight Charis again.

Sort of a moot point as we know what is going to happen to the last CoGA navy has left...

Yes. One can't say that there is no innovation going. Having a grand total of two or perhaps we could say three people doing creative things for the Temple and Clyntahn thinking about killing one of them to shore up his political position in his competition with Duchairan can't be said to be no innovation at all...(Note my tongue in cheek!). Why the Temple actually managed to come up with its own design for a breech loader!

In a more serious vein is that Charis has INSTITUTIONALIZED innovation by providing support structure, funding, and encouragement to make it happen. The fruit of that has been a steady stream of invention along with an expanding industrial base to bring all that creativity to reality.

By way of contrast, the Temple discourages innovation and only does the bare minimum, being dragged kicking and screaming the whole way. Both Thirsk and Magwair feel the need to protect their pet wizzards from the inquisition, for Pete's sake. I presume that the Temple has the same percentage of smart people as anywhere else. But being smart under Temple control means keeping your head down lest Clyntahn cut it off.

Don

What is amazing to me is that the temple side has gotten as far as it has even with their spies stealing tech secrets.

BarryKirk wrote:What is amazing to me is that the temple side has gotten as far as it has even with their spies stealing tech secrets.

Until steam was introduced to the Temple artisans, the new mechanical innovations were well within the existing artisans' skill to reproduce. The novelty of assembly lines and their immediate precursors is just being recognized by the Dohlaran techie. That is the big differentiator for Charis. The Temple is just starting to adapt some changes in the direction of Charisian essembly lines.

Unfortunately for the temple's war effort it is too late. Their GHoGatA won't have enough breech loaders when they face the ICA come Summer. The production rates will not allow the Temple artisans to rebuild enough weapons quickly enough to offset defeats. They will face the same issues that Hektor faced when Cayleb corncobbed his field army; enough men but not enough weapons to field an effective force.

The quality of the Temple's steel simply adds to the production issues. Instead of producing only steel and increasing steel production, the Temple has to maintain and increase iron and brass production as well. That means more inputs to manage the flows for and a larger variety of production processes to streamline. If the Temple truly wants to include powered systems, then they will have to create a greater variety of powered tools to support their various processes.

The temple has gone as far as they can go without truly transforming their industrial production meathods. Considering what Charis has in the pipeline for the Summer, there is no time for the Temple to implement those changes before the Charisian sledgehammer flattens the jihadi forces.

PeterZ wrote:

BarryKirk wrote:What is amazing to me is that the temple side has gotten as far as it has even with their spies stealing tech secrets.

Until steam was introduced to the Temple artisans, the new mechanical innovations were well within the existing artisans' skill to reproduce. The novelty of assembly lines and their immediate precursors is just being recognized by the Dohlaran techie. That is the big differentiator for Charis. The Temple is just starting to adapt some changes in the direction of Charisian essembly lines.

Unfortunately for the temple's war effort it is too late. Their GHoGatA won't have enough breech loaders when they face the ICA come Summer. The production rates will not allow the Temple artisans to rebuild enough weapons quickly enough to offset defeats. They will face the same issues that Hektor faced when Cayleb corncobbed his field army; enough men but not enough weapons to field an effective force.

The quality of the Temple's steel simply adds to the production issues. Instead of producing only steen and increasing steel production, the Temple has to maintain and increase iron and brass production. That means more inputs to manage the flows for and a larger variety of production processes to streamline. If the Temple truly wants to include powered systems, then they will have to create a greater variety of powered tools to support their various processes.

The temple has gone as far as they can go without truly transforming their industrial production meathods. Considering what Charis has in the pipeline for the Summer, there is no time for the Temple to implement those changes before the Charisian sledgehammer flattens the jihadi forces.

Yep. Plus even if they could produce their Ferguson knock-offs in sufficient numbers, they will be facing M96es.

Don