(SPOILER) Nimue and the Royal Guard

The world is changing. A lot. Actually, it has changed a lot. My freshman class, 50 years ago, was 9% women. It is a long time ago that a majority of the students in physical chemistry at at least one top school were female.

Direwolf18 wrote:

kbus888 wrote:One of the big reasons I am so proud of my younger daughter is that she is a "Professional Engineer" where here (in Canada as well as in other places, I am sure) the "glass ceiling" exists for females.

For what its worth Kbus888 I work as an Engineer in an Aerospace company in the USA. Of the three levels of management above me, 2 of those 3 are women. My boss's boss is a woman, and HER boss, the VP of Engineering, is also female.

I honestly don't think its a matter of a glass ceiling as it is so many females choose not to be engineers. When I was in college at Georgia Tech, (2004-2009 so not that long ago) I had one engineering class with 200 people in it. 5 of them were female. 5.

Yea try getting a date in a class like that.

Its not that girls tried and dropped out at a higher rate then the guys, I wouldn't be shocked if the inverse was true. The problem was even as a freshman the ratio was at best 70/30 and most of the girls were in Biology or Biomed, not Engineering.

MWadwell wrote:
I agree that Sharley and Cayleb are pushing for equality - but there is a limit on how hard they can push.

You are right that this is a time of change. However, change is never comfortable, and there are going to be significant sections of the population that are already uncomfortable with the changes already underway.

To then throw even more changes on top of that, is likely to increase the risk that more people will side with the Loyalists - which is hardly beneficial when you are fighting for your survival.....


If I was Sharley and Cayleb, I would push as hard as I dared, but recognise that full equality is unlikely.....

I suppose I am more in the camp that would push for an ideal immediately but compel nothing. So far Cayleb and Sharley have led the way by providing an example. Continue that.

The military will follow Cayleb's orders. If those orders dictate change, the soldiers will give it a go. So long as those ordered changes work, there will be few issues. Making them work might be difficult, but hey! that's what senior officers are for.

In terms of general industry and commerce, the Crown will still be a huge customer for the indefinite future. The more a supplier complies with His/Her Majesty's Generally Accepted Industrial Principles published by the Imperial Council, the better their chances are to get contracts. These standards quality measures as well as management policies.

Legally, the changes might have to come slowly so that people can make arrangements with very few disruptions. Yet even then what the end set of laws will look like and the pace for implementing the changes should be transparant. So long as Charisian laws focus on protecting the rights and liberties Cayleb and Sharley fought the G4 to secure, all will be copasetic.

The central question that needs to be answered is that do western societies, of which the Empire of Charis seems to be a 18th or 19th Century manifestation, want to ignore the wishes of most to provide opportunities for the few?

It is a simple biological fact that men and women are built to different specifications. That doesn’t mean that men and women can’t do the same things. (Men can only do one thing that women can’t naturally and women can do only two things naturally that men can’t. All three things have to do with reproduction and child rearing and I don’t want to address transsexual biological oddities.) It just means that each sex as a whole has its own particular strengths and weaknesses. The physical and the many different mental capabilities of both sexes can be graphed into what are essentially bell shaped distributions. Those distributions are not identical. These two graphs will show the existence of outliers of both sexes on both sides of the curve. The central question that a society should answer honestly and deliberatively is how it will accept or even encourage those comparatively rare individuals of both sexes that are two standard deviations or more from the mean physically or mentally. Most western societies basically ignore individuals of both sexes who fall short of their gender norms while celebrating those individuals who have greatly exceeded those norms.

I fully accept the many valuable contributions made by female Soldiers. However, it has been my experience over 40+ years of being in or around the U.S. Army that comparatively few female Soldiers would make good infantry grunts, tankers, and M-109A6 howitzer gun bunnies. The vast majority of female Soldiers lack the muscle mass to do what male Soldiers in those specialties routinely have to do in the field. That lack of muscle mass is not going to be rectified by any physical training program that the U.S. Army can afford. Societies fighting for their life don’t have a choice and will use any resources that they have available. They will let five females do what three males could do.

Additionally, recent U.S. Army surveys have shown that few female Soldiers actually want to serve in those dirty and dangerous frontline occupational specialties. I would think that the same would apply to Safehold.

As with the previous military poster, I do not quibble with your observations in the least.

I still submit that using 3 women or even 4 women to do what they can do plus 2 men is a net plus over 2 men plus 0 women. This would be especially true when you are vastly outnumbered as Charis is (or as in Russia's case, considerably outgunned/considerably deficient re. maneuverability--especially at first). You do agree with this at the end, of course.

I will note that the attitude in the Cdn Forces appears much different as my son--who is an infantry corporal--talks very differently from the observations here. But then "equality" isn't the goal in the Cdn Forces. Appropriate use of skills/abilities is much more the idea. For example, the largest proportions of women in Cdn (army) "combat arms" are in armour and engineering (which does not jibe with your observations below). A final point is that the Cdn Forces integrated decades ago, so the initial "shock" is long gone.

USMA74 wrote:The central question that needs to be answered is that do western societies, of which the Empire of Charis seems to be a 18th or 19th Century manifestation, want to ignore the wishes of most to provide opportunities for the few?

It is a simple biological fact that men and women are built to different specifications. That doesn’t mean that men and women can’t do the same things. (Men can only do one thing that women can’t naturally and women can do only two things naturally that men can’t. All three things have to do with reproduction and child rearing and I don’t want to address transsexual biological oddities.) It just means that each sex as a whole has its own particular strengths and weaknesses. The physical and the many different mental capabilities of both sexes can be graphed into what are essentially bell shaped distributions. Those distributions are not identical. These two graphs will show the existence of outliers of both sexes on both sides of the curve. The central question that a society should answer honestly and deliberatively is how it will accept or even encourage those comparatively rare individuals of both sexes that are two standard deviations or more from the mean physically or mentally. Most western societies basically ignore individuals of both sexes who fall short of their gender norms while celebrating those individuals who have greatly exceeded those norms.

I fully accept the many valuable contributions made by female Soldiers. However, it has been my experience over 40+ years of being in or around the U.S. Army that comparatively few female Soldiers would make good infantry grunts, tankers, and M-109A6 howitzer gun bunnies. The vast majority of female Soldiers lack the muscle mass to do what male Soldiers in those specialties routinely have to do in the field. That lack of muscle mass is not going to be rectified by any physical training program that the U.S. Army can afford. Societies fighting for the life don’t have a choice and will use any resources that they have available. They will let five females do what three males could do.

Additionally, recent U.S. Army surveys have shown that few female Soldiers actually want to serve in those dirty and dangerous frontline occupational specialties. I would think that the same would apply to Safehold.

So far discussions have focussed on inclusion of females into areas they have not had much access to. I believe that Nimue's arrival and the perception of Hektor's miraculous recovery might be used to expand the numbers of known seijins.

Hektor is believed to have been touched by God through the prayers of Irys. Might that not be used for him to admit to some seijin-like abilities? Perhaps he might also develop visions or insights. No he isn't any stronger than normal all the time, but he might be able to perform more limited feats of the extraordinary. Most likely Hektor might have a powerful link to Irys that allows them to "know" what the other is thinking.

I am not saying for them to lie about anything. I am suggesting Hektor admit to some newly acquired extraordinary abilities. Simply saying he has been given visions is good enough. Yes, keep those abilities from becomming public the same way Merlin's abilities were. A few key people not in the inner circle will know of his visions.

I believe it would be good to have other active agents than simply Merlin and Nimue. IIRC, there is no one in the Navy between Charis and Dohlar that is in the Inner Circle. They need someone. I suspect that Dominic will command the KH VIIs when they sail into the Gulf of Dohlar. That still leaves any potential ground forces dreadfully dependant on Merlin's seijin network. Nimue might be used but then who would protect Daivyn and Irys? Hektor as an operative would be ideal.

We shall see how this plays out.

Regarding women in the military, reckon you folks may find this an interesting read:
http://www.baen.com/amazonsrightbreast.asp

Read the WHOLE thing before commenting.... Tom Kratman seems to take a special pleasure in twitting folks.

My only quibble is that this is always presented as women substituting in while men substitute out. Any time that is the case of course you lose muscle power on average. No sensible person would argue that. But there is another way of looking at it which is women adding in where most appropriate.

I would much rather face 10 men 6 or 7 of whom are carrying stuff around for the 3 or 4 at the tip of the spear than 10 men plus 6 or 7 women organized appropriately so that muscle is most efficiently used to place the max amount at the tip of the spear.

That isn't "social engineering". That is harnessing all available resources when you're greatly outnumbered.

As I've said earlier, I do have immediate family in the Cdn Forces. Kratman misses the point greatly there. The fact that women are appropriately placed in combat arms specialties is not a general comment about women, it is a general comment on efficient organization.

Invictus wrote:Regarding women in the military, reckon you folks may find this an interesting read:
http://www.baen.com/amazonsrightbreast.asp

Read the WHOLE thing before commenting.... Tom Kratman seems to take a special pleasure in twitting folks.

I don't believe the Colonel did miss the point. I recommend you read his Amazon Legion to see how he addresses your concerns on this issue. It is a good read and he covers many more things most people who don't train soldiers usually consider.

jgnfld wrote:My only quibble is that this is always presented as women substituting in while men substitute out. Any time that is the case of course you lose muscle power on average. No sensible person would argue that. But there is another way of looking at it which is women adding in where most appropriate.

I would much rather face 10 men 6 or 7 of whom are carrying stuff around for the 3 or 4 at the tip of the spear than 10 men plus 6 or 7 women organized appropriately so that muscle is most efficiently used to place the max amount at the tip of the spear.

That isn't "social engineering". That is harnessing all available resources when you're greatly outnumbered.

As I've said earlier, I do have immediate family in the Cdn Forces. Kratman misses the point greatly there. The fact that women are appropriately placed in combat arms specialties is not a general comment about women, it is a general comment on efficient organization.

Invictus wrote:Regarding women in the military, reckon you folks may find this an interesting read:
http://www.baen.com/amazonsrightbreast.asp

Read the WHOLE thing before commenting.... Tom Kratman seems to take a special pleasure in twitting folks.

I think that it would have been even better if Merlin observed to Cayleb:

"Did you note that she's only using her left hand?"

In Industrial Construction and Process Operations women are making inroads. I am seeing a steady increase in female engineers and have been impressed and supportive. Individual male and female engineers are either competant or working on competancy. Some of either just don't make it.

Women are typically smaller framed but have never been short on brains. Equality goes back to the phrase 'some are more equal than others'.