whole star nation from scratch fleet question

Kzt; there are multiple ways around that actually. But all of them depend on local conditions and nuances.

Forex; if this "colony" is actually a relatively new (1800+) corporation of "space age preppers" then the "colony" would probably have a mobile dock/repair ship as well as a mining vessel and other sundries for orbital infrastructure instead of classical a bottom of gravity well colony.

On the other hand, if this is an outer verge space nation from an old sublight colony ship that wants/needs to jumpstart their defense forces from scratch, buying a unit of Havenite sector "export grade" escorts, leasing a repairship and a fleet coiler (that can manufacture missiles) and buying a modern fabrication unit would be the way to go.

Hell, if everything else fails (and you are mad enough), you can always deploy a commando op and steal ships from pirates and slavers and rebels.

Cronicler wrote:Kzt; there are multiple ways around that actually. But all of them depend on local conditions and nuances.

Forex; if this "colony" is actually corporation of "space age preppers" then the "colony" would probably have a mobile dock/repair ship as well as a mining vessel and other sundries for orbital infrastructure instead of classical a bottom of gravity well colony.

On the other hand, if this is an outer verge space nation from an old sublight colony ship that wants/needs to jumpstart their defense forces from scratch, buying a unit of Havenite sector "export grade" escorts, leasing a repairship and a fleet coiler (that can manufacture missiles) and buying a modern fabrication unit would be the way to go.

Hell, if everything else fails (and you are mad enough), you can always deploy a commando op and steal ships from pirates and slavers and rebels.

Heck, I know this dude named Sarnow, who is liquidating THOUSANDS of former Silensian Navyships. OK - they are almost total jusk - but they are cheap. He just is looking for the proper government credentials......

crewdude48;
My strategy depends on deterrence and the assumption that enemy won't have anything heavier than a pair of BCs at most.
I'm assuming that there are no astrological quirks and it is a typical frontier / verge nation. This means (until SL dissolves) the best you can do is use your distance from the hyper limit and imitate the Swiss strategy; "You can take this place but it will cost too much".

A LAC group (Box missiles and single laser) with a Corvette support (DD without hyper drive essentially) will destroy any non-armoured opponent with very good exchange rates.

Multiple LAC squadrons screening the inner system (Anvil) and one or two hyper capable formations lurking behind enemy force (Hammer) and "cheap but many" missiles is the core of what I envision as "the system defence on a budget"
approach.

Theemile;
Yep, that's also an option. But until we get a Time&Location confirmation, all we can do is providing general suggestions which aren't/can't be any more detailed than a single A4 summary of Art of War.
An option which might work in zone X will be useless in zone Y. Same for time periods.

crewdude48 wrote:

Cronicler wrote:Depending on the strategic and tactical nuances, I wouldn't go for a DD based navy at all. I know it is always a battle between political showmanship and actual usability but in the "Havenite Sector Wars" period I would rather get a few second hand medium or jumbo freighters (hulls, to be precise) and use those as LAC bases; with the majority of my System Defense Force consisting of old style LACs and/or Corvettes.

With this plan, unless you have Manticore level tech, you wind up with all of the cost of a real navy with none of the deterrent or survivability. This would be fine for a member of the SL, or somebody who is protected by a much larger navy, but an independent system needs at least some hyper capable hulls to be able to counterattack an aggressor.

Yep, old style LACs were pretty pitiful. They barely had the acceleration of a superdreadnought (around 409 g), a pair of (admittedly numerous for their size) missile launches, and pitiful point defense. [Well I guess they didn't have to flush an entire broadside's missiles at once; but the box launchers didn't have reloads]

A destroyer would have to be a little careful taking on its weight in tech equivalent LACs; but if it could roll behind its wedge I think it'd have an good chance of surviving the first or 7 or 8 LACs. And once they've shot their bolt...

OK for anti-piracy use and some light SAR, but not much beyond that. Not against a real opponent.

Jonathan_S ;

You are making a basic but subtle mistake there. A LAC of tech level X will always be (a bit) faster than a tech level X DD.
Your comparison was equivalent to comparing WW2 torpedo boats against a cold war DD. (You should be comparing tpbs to ww2 DDEs). The handful of LACs that we saw in Haven sector were all ancient relics that had been relegated to coast guard / customs duties.

The closest comparison that I can find is this:


Name: Series 282
Type: Light attack craft
Date: 1904 PD
Mass: 17,750 tons

Len.: 121 m

Beam: 20 m
Dra.: 19 m
Acc.: 458.6 G (573.2 G maximum)
Crew: 10
Arm.:
-Broadside: 12MB, 1L, 1CM, 3PD

-Chase: 1L, 2PD


Vs

Name: Culverin
Type: Destroyer
Date: 1899 PD
Mass: 104,000 tons
Len.: 404 m
Beam: 48 m
Dra.: 27 m
Acc.: 437.9 G (547.4 G maximum)
Arm.:
-Broadside: 5M, 4L, 5CM, 4PD
-Chase: 2M, 1L, 2CM, 2PD






Here is how I visualize it;
-LAC is 1+1 hull points, (1 dmg: mission kill, 2 dmg: total loss)
-DD is 4+1 hps, (1 dmg: mission degradation, 4dmg: Mission kill, 5 dmg: total loss)
-laser hit does d2 damage, can crit.
-missile hit does d4 damage, can crit.

A wing of LACs that operate as a unit will always be more powerful than a DD or CL as far as combat power is concerned.

Unless/Until there are some armored combatants are involved or the fight does not take place relatively deep inside the hyper limit, LACs are the budget efficient solution.






Btw, I'm not advocating LACs and Corvettes are the bestest or anything. I'm arguing that they are the best for buck choice for the part of the navy that will always be kept at home defending in a young and small navy. Once the need to deploy beyond your hyperlimit reaches a certain threshold, (and your economy/gdp grows enough) you [s]should[/s] have to switch to DDs as your swarm and CLs as your patrollers.

Cronicler wrote:Jonathan_S ;

You are making a basic but subtle mistake there. A LAC of tech level X will always be (a bit) faster than a tech level X DD.
Your comparison was equivalent to comparing WW2 torpedo boats against a cold war DD. (You should be comparing tpbs to ww2 DDEs). The handful of LACs that we saw in Haven sector were all ancient relics that had been relegated to coast guard / customs duties.

The closest comparison that I can find is this:


Name: Series 282
Type: Light attack craft
Date: 1904 PD
Mass: 17,750 tons

Len.: 121 m

Beam: 20 m
Dra.: 19 m
Acc.: 458.6 G (573.2 G maximum)
Crew: 10
Arm.:
-Broadside: 12MB, 1L, 1CM, 3PD

-Chase: 1L, 2PD


Vs

Name: Culverin
Type: Destroyer
Date: 1899 PD
Mass: 104,000 tons
Len.: 404 m
Beam: 48 m
Dra.: 27 m
Acc.: 437.9 G (547.4 G maximum)
Arm.:
-Broadside: 5M, 4L, 5CM, 4PD
-Chase: 2M, 1L, 2CM, 2PD






Here is how I visualize it;
-LAC is 1+1 hull points, (1 dmg: mission kill, 2 dmg: total loss)
-DD is 4+1 hps, (1 dmg: mission degradation, 4dmg: Mission kill, 5 dmg: total loss)
-laser hit does d2 damage, can crit.
-missile hit does d4 damage, can crit.

A wing of LACs that operate as a unit will always be more powerful than a DD or CL as far as combat power is concerned.

Unless/Until there are some armored combatants are involved or the fight does not take place relatively deep inside the hyper limit, LACs are the budget efficient solution.






Btw, I'm not advocating LACs and Corvettes are the bestest or anything. I'm arguing that they are the best for buck choice for the part of the navy that will always be kept at home defending in a young and small navy. Once the need to deploy beyond your hyperlimit reaches a certain threshold, (and your economy/gdp grows enough) you [s]should[/s] have to switch to DDs as your swarm and CLs as your patrollers.

No jonathan is right, until the 282, no lacs carried alpha nodes, just beta nodes so their wedge strnth wasn't strong enough to max the compensator. Manticores beta squared nodes allowed lacs to have full power wedge without alpha nodes.

Edit:
Theemile; I just rechecked the book (HH6), and there is no mention of the b^2 nodes, only new gen. compensators (which was also in Nike class. Trying to determine if Culverins have the same compensator.)

Cronicler wrote:Edit:
Theemile; I just rechecked the book (HH6), and there is no mention of the b^2 nodes, only new gen. compensators (which was also in Nike class. Trying to determine if Culverins have the same compensator.)

I believe the beta squared nodes were new for the Shrikes, but there's a mention in either HH6 or HoS that the 282s were the first LACs with a powerful enough wedge to really utilize their compensator.

Oh and the Culverin in HoS might have an upgraded compensator, though by the rules of the book it shouldn't. The entries should (except when otherwise noted) be the specs at introduction. But the Culverin specifically has 29.5 more Gs than it should. That lines up with a SVW Nike compensator. (FWIW the Culverin specs from Jaynes at 518.9g which is right on the pre-Grayson accel curve)

Jonathan_S ;
Only have access to Novels so I can't give any definitive answer or info from jayne's and similar sources.

That said, my ramblings were based on the assumption of roughly 1850/First Havenite War level TL (or their export variants) and a solar system that is somewhat between the Verge (so no FF intervention) and Havenite Sector . Change tech level or location or provide a specific foundation date and I would have to scrap my guesstimates and start over.