(SPOILER) Political Consequences of the Military Defeat

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Re: (SPOILER) Political Consequences of the Military Defeat
by CJK » Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:09 am
CJK Captain (Junior Grade) Posts: 297 Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:47 pm	@ lyonheart, IMO getting the details of events leading up to the disaster of the Army of Shiloh would require the report of someone there, preferably (in Clyntahn's eyes) an inquisitor. Now reflect back to the book A Might Fortress, more specifically how Magwair had the fleet from the Temple lands hug the coast and send regular reports on their position. It is not a huge stretch to assume that the same would be done with every land army the CoGA has called up, especially when they are footing the bill. Besides with as many bureaucrats that an army of 230,000 men would need, plus regular spy reports ntm orders on what supplies are needed. There should be plenty of evidence on what decisions were made and by whom sent PRIOR to their destruction. Now that the army is destroyed and the survivors on the run in several directions, there ARE no reports. Nor are supplies getting through so it should not take the CoGA long to notice that communications have been silenced with the strong implication that the Shiloh army has been cut off. WHY does not really matter at this point most messengers or scout will be busy trying to find any survivors, but the very fact that they CANT find an army of 230,00 men is not good news and will be passed up the chains of command asap. Now a quick look on the CHARIS side of things, which should have SOME spies nearby that will notice that the the Charisian forces near the army of Shiloh are now requiring prisoners to be moved. Again this will not be fast as there are no direct communication lines plus having to make sure not to be detected. I expect that Clyntahn could reconstruct events if patient enough. He does not NEED to however, nor does he have to wait for evidence of incompetence to start blaming Desnair and Dohlar for failing the CoGA. and all he needs to indicate that things are wrong is the absence of any communication at all when before he had a constant stream of reports, which may well have been outdated by several 5-days. Total silence where one expects chatter is a message in itself. In the event that the ENTIRETY of Howard is silenced, well same as above when Desnair supply teams and messangers are no longer finding or coming back from the army of Shiloh. the very fact that the CoGA can no longer communicate with Howard is a pretty strong indicator that something bad has happened.
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Re: (SPOILER) Political Consequences of the Military Defeat

by CJK » Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:09 am

CJK
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 297
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:47 pm

@ lyonheart,

IMO getting the details of events leading up to the disaster of the Army of Shiloh would require the report of someone there, preferably (in Clyntahn's eyes) an inquisitor. Now reflect back to the book A Might Fortress, more specifically how Magwair had the fleet from the Temple lands hug the coast and send regular reports on their position. It is not a huge stretch to assume that the same would be done with every land army the CoGA has called up, especially when they are footing the bill.

Besides with as many bureaucrats that an army of 230,000 men would need, plus regular spy reports ntm orders on what supplies are needed. There should be plenty of evidence on what decisions were made and by whom sent PRIOR to their destruction.

Now that the army is destroyed and the survivors on the run in several directions, there ARE no reports. Nor are supplies getting through so it should not take the CoGA long to notice that communications have been silenced with the strong implication that the Shiloh army has been cut off. WHY does not really matter at this point most messengers or scout will be busy trying to find any survivors, but the very fact that they CANT find an army of 230,00 men is not good news and will be passed up the chains of command asap.

Now a quick look on the CHARIS side of things, which should have SOME spies nearby that will notice that the the Charisian forces near the army of Shiloh are now requiring prisoners to be moved. Again this will not be fast as there are no direct communication lines plus having to make sure not to be detected.

I expect that Clyntahn could reconstruct events if patient enough. He does not NEED to however, nor does he have to wait for evidence of incompetence to start blaming Desnair and Dohlar for failing the CoGA. and all he needs to indicate that things are wrong is the absence of any communication at all when before he had a constant stream of reports, which may well have been outdated by several 5-days. Total silence where one expects chatter is a message in itself.

In the event that the ENTIRETY of Howard is silenced, well same as above when Desnair supply teams and messangers are no longer finding or coming back from the army of Shiloh. the very fact that the CoGA can no longer communicate with Howard is a pretty strong indicator that something bad has happened.

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Re: (SPOILER) Political Consequences of the Military Defeat
by alj_sf » Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:42 am
alj_sf Commander Posts: 218 Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:26 pm Location: confluent of 3 rivers : Rhone, Saone & Beaujolais	CJK wrote:@ lyonheart, IMO getting the details of events leading up to the disaster of the Army of Shiloh would require the report of someone there, preferably (in Clyntahn's eyes) an inquisitor. Now reflect back to the book A Might Fortress, more specifically how Magwair had the fleet from the Temple lands hug the coast and send regular reports on their position. It is not a huge stretch to assume that the same would be done with every land army the CoGA has called up, especially when they are footing the bill. Besides with as many bureaucrats that an army of 230,000 men would need, plus regular spy reports ntm orders on what supplies are needed. There should be plenty of evidence on what decisions were made and by whom sent PRIOR to their destruction. Now that the army is destroyed and the survivors on the run in several directions, there ARE no reports. Nor are supplies getting through so it should not take the CoGA long to notice that communications have been silenced with the strong implication that the Shiloh army has been cut off. WHY does not really matter at this point most messengers or scout will be busy trying to find any survivors, but the very fact that they CANT find an army of 230,00 men is not good news and will be passed up the chains of command asap. Now a quick look on the CHARIS side of things, which should have SOME spies nearby that will notice that the the Charisian forces near the army of Shiloh are now requiring prisoners to be moved. Again this will not be fast as there are no direct communication lines plus having to make sure not to be detected. I expect that Clyntahn could reconstruct events if patient enough. He does not NEED to however, nor does he have to wait for evidence of incompetence to start blaming Desnair and Dohlar for failing the CoGA. and all he needs to indicate that things are wrong is the absence of any communication at all when before he had a constant stream of reports, which may well have been outdated by several 5-days. Total silence where one expects chatter is a message in itself. In the event that the ENTIRETY of Howard is silenced, well same as above when Desnair supply teams and messangers are no longer finding or coming back from the army of Shiloh. the very fact that the CoGA can no longer communicate with Howard is a pretty strong indicator that something bad has happened. This is not naval operations with their by design detached and independent commands. Which means there was pre-action and note of intentions report sent previously. So the very absence of an AAR when a planified operation was due is in itself a report. Imprecise and ominous, but still information ladden.
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Re: (SPOILER) Political Consequences of the Military Defeat

by alj_sf » Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:42 am

alj_sf
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Posts: 218
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CJK wrote:@ lyonheart,

IMO getting the details of events leading up to the disaster of the Army of Shiloh would require the report of someone there, preferably (in Clyntahn's eyes) an inquisitor. Now reflect back to the book A Might Fortress, more specifically how Magwair had the fleet from the Temple lands hug the coast and send regular reports on their position. It is not a huge stretch to assume that the same would be done with every land army the CoGA has called up, especially when they are footing the bill.

Besides with as many bureaucrats that an army of 230,000 men would need, plus regular spy reports ntm orders on what supplies are needed. There should be plenty of evidence on what decisions were made and by whom sent PRIOR to their destruction.

Now that the army is destroyed and the survivors on the run in several directions, there ARE no reports. Nor are supplies getting through so it should not take the CoGA long to notice that communications have been silenced with the strong implication that the Shiloh army has been cut off. WHY does not really matter at this point most messengers or scout will be busy trying to find any survivors, but the very fact that they CANT find an army of 230,00 men is not good news and will be passed up the chains of command asap.

Now a quick look on the CHARIS side of things, which should have SOME spies nearby that will notice that the the Charisian forces near the army of Shiloh are now requiring prisoners to be moved. Again this will not be fast as there are no direct communication lines plus having to make sure not to be detected.

I expect that Clyntahn could reconstruct events if patient enough. He does not NEED to however, nor does he have to wait for evidence of incompetence to start blaming Desnair and Dohlar for failing the CoGA. and all he needs to indicate that things are wrong is the absence of any communication at all when before he had a constant stream of reports, which may well have been outdated by several 5-days. Total silence where one expects chatter is a message in itself.

In the event that the ENTIRETY of Howard is silenced, well same as above when Desnair supply teams and messangers are no longer finding or coming back from the army of Shiloh. the very fact that the CoGA can no longer communicate with Howard is a pretty strong indicator that something bad has happened.

This is not naval operations with their by design detached and independent commands. Which means there was pre-action and note of intentions report sent previously. So the very absence of an AAR when a planified operation was due is in itself a report. Imprecise and ominous, but still information ladden.

Top

Re: (SPOILER) Political Consequences of the Military Defeat
by jmseeley » Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:47 pm
jmseeley Lieutenant Commander Posts: 107 Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:55 pm	lyonheart wrote:Hello JMSeeley, Kudos for some excellent points. The Go4 may indeed see every setback as only that, nothing that can't be fixed in time with enough money etc. However there are limits to all things. Nor do I think the allies are about rest during the best and busiest campaign weather. I've postulated elsewhere how the allies could easily defeat the IHA's GHoGatA, being split into 3 armies to replace those lost by the AoG and the RDA/IDA. First I think BGV will do very well against Wyrshym, with more than 3 times as many rifles etc, so much I'm curious if anyone sees a way out for him to escape with his army. Wyrshym's best infantry divisions are going to get so clobbered few will be able to fight so surrender is the only option, then imagine if one of OWL's sensor's tripped or zapped the sole messenger's horse, so he doesn't get the message until its too late... Kaitswyrth may have only 9,000 rifles for perhaps 121,000 men; less than a sixth of what Symkyn has for his 75,000 besides possibly actually outnumbering Kaitswyrth's surviving AoG soldiers (the rest being TL's), as well as having a larger cavalry force, NTM far greater artillery power. Unlike DE, Symkyn does have cavalry so any position K has near the forest is going to get easily flanked, so whatever size that force was it will be toast very soon, making taking Aivahstyn that much easier. Given the lesson of what happens to armies being bigger than their logistics permit, I suspect the IHA's GHoGatA will be split into at least armies to replace the 3 already or soon to be lost. The middle or central one (replacing Kaitswyrth) can get into action the soonest by marching ~800 miles overland to the Charayn Canal for another ~600 to Aivahstyn but still taking another 35-40 days to get there. If EHM's Scout Snipers get to the Fairmyn River a couple of five days before, they could block or bar all future supplies just in time to trap this IHA army, which could also face river ironclads that could slaughter it on the Daivyn, with Symkyn and EHM sweeping up the remnants. Wyrshym's IHA replacement army could take 60 days or more to get near Five Forks (where its been suggested Wyrshym may surrender) by which time Symkyn might have gone up the upper Daivyn to cut off the Langhorne behind that army, compelling its surrender or destruction. BGV can then go to Spinefish bay to embark his army for Zion, only 8-10 days away, with no army near the temple to stop him along with Cayleb and some reinforcements. The third or southern army going down the Sabana River then east, inland of the Bay of Bess, will take at least 40 days to get to Dairnyth, where it may find itself more dependent on Dohlar than the temple lands; thus constrained it may not attempt to pursue DE very far. It may be split to a few sub armies to accomplish all the missions assigned to it, which will make it easier for De to destroy it in detail, but the major point is it will be too far from Zion, ie out of position, to prevent the allies from advancing and taking the temple from different directions. That's how I see things shaping up, given how RFC has spiced things up with a trip to Zion for Merlin and Nynian, HFQ could be a very wild ride! L Another possibility scenario: After he finishes trashing his apartment again, Clyntahn insists that Wyrshym and Kaitswyrth stand in place. He argues that they've already failed Mother Church by not being victorious, so the best use for them is to delay the Alliance forces until the IHA is trained and equipped. He has a point - the AoG armies aren't strong enough to attack, but they're too strong to ignore and bypass. One of the things the Alliance has demonstrated repeatedly is how properly dug-in defenses can bleed an attacker. The Alliance can eliminate them, but it will take time. I don't see them resting during campaigning season, I was thinking more like the Spring melt season, which comes later in the North anyway. If they don't have some recovery time, exhaustion will significantly affect their capability. In this scenario, the IHA will hang back in the Border States/extreme West Siddarmark. They'll try to emulate the Alliance operational approach of fortressing up where the enemy has to attack, and then hit them after they've already worn themselves out. Only a part of the IHA will be up to a modern standard - that will become the main strike element - while the rest can be best used in the fortifications and as cannon fodder. That is until they figure out what's what and mutiny. I don't know if/how well this will work but I can see how it would appeal to Clyntahn. He's getting more Hitler-like with every passing week, and I doubt the people around him will be able to moderate him much longer. From Clyntahn's perspective the Temple Guard has failed God by not winning - Stand-and-die is just expiation for that failure. Harchong has always been his favorite, and their faith will make up for any material shortcomings. The others may realize that Clyntahn's finally gone over the edge, but so long as the Inquisition stays loyal there's no obvious way to remove him. We may finally see what Duchairn has put together. jms
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Re: (SPOILER) Political Consequences of the Military Defeat

by jmseeley » Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:47 pm

jmseeley
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Posts: 107
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lyonheart wrote:Hello JMSeeley,

Kudos for some excellent points.

The Go4 may indeed see every setback as only that, nothing that can't be fixed in time with enough money etc.

However there are limits to all things.

Nor do I think the allies are about rest during the best and busiest campaign weather.

I've postulated elsewhere how the allies could easily defeat the IHA's GHoGatA, being split into 3 armies to replace those lost by the AoG and the RDA/IDA.

First I think BGV will do very well against Wyrshym, with more than 3 times as many rifles etc, so much I'm curious if anyone sees a way out for him to escape with his army.

Wyrshym's best infantry divisions are going to get so clobbered few will be able to fight so surrender is the only option, then imagine if one of OWL's sensor's tripped or zapped the sole messenger's horse, so he doesn't get the message until its too late...

Kaitswyrth may have only 9,000 rifles for perhaps 121,000 men; less than a sixth of what Symkyn has for his 75,000 besides possibly actually outnumbering Kaitswyrth's surviving AoG soldiers (the rest being TL's), as well as having a larger cavalry force, NTM far greater artillery power.

Unlike DE, Symkyn does have cavalry so any position K has near the forest is going to get easily flanked, so whatever size that force was it will be toast very soon, making taking Aivahstyn that much easier.

Given the lesson of what happens to armies being bigger than their logistics permit, I suspect the IHA's GHoGatA will be split into at least armies to replace the 3 already or soon to be lost.

The middle or central one (replacing Kaitswyrth) can get into action the soonest by marching ~800 miles overland to the Charayn Canal for another ~600 to Aivahstyn but still taking another 35-40 days to get there.

If EHM's Scout Snipers get to the Fairmyn River a couple of five days before, they could block or bar all future supplies just in time to trap this IHA army, which could also face river ironclads that could slaughter it on the Daivyn, with Symkyn and EHM sweeping up the remnants.

Wyrshym's IHA replacement army could take 60 days or more to get near Five Forks (where its been suggested Wyrshym may surrender) by which time Symkyn might have gone up the upper Daivyn to cut off the Langhorne behind that army, compelling its surrender or destruction.

BGV can then go to Spinefish bay to embark his army for Zion, only 8-10 days away, with no army near the temple to stop him along with Cayleb and some reinforcements.

The third or southern army going down the Sabana River then east, inland of the Bay of Bess, will take at least 40 days to get to Dairnyth, where it may find itself more dependent on Dohlar than the temple lands; thus constrained it may not attempt to pursue DE very far.

It may be split to a few sub armies to accomplish all the missions assigned to it, which will make it easier for De to destroy it in detail, but the major point is it will be too far from Zion, ie out of position, to prevent the allies from advancing and taking the temple from different directions.

That's how I see things shaping up, given how RFC has spiced things up with a trip to Zion for Merlin and Nynian, HFQ could be a very wild ride!

L

Another possibility scenario:

After he finishes trashing his apartment again, Clyntahn insists that Wyrshym and Kaitswyrth stand in place. He argues that they've already failed Mother Church by not being victorious, so the best use for them is to delay the Alliance forces until the IHA is trained and equipped. He has a point - the AoG armies aren't strong enough to attack, but they're too strong to ignore and bypass. One of the things the Alliance has demonstrated repeatedly is how properly dug-in defenses can bleed an attacker. The Alliance can eliminate them, but it will take time.

I don't see them resting during campaigning season, I was thinking more like the Spring melt season, which comes later in the North anyway. If they don't have some recovery time, exhaustion will significantly affect their capability.

In this scenario, the IHA will hang back in the Border States/extreme West Siddarmark. They'll try to emulate the Alliance operational approach of fortressing up where the enemy has to attack, and then hit them after they've already worn themselves out. Only a part of the IHA will be up to a modern standard - that will become the main strike element - while the rest can be best used in the fortifications and as cannon fodder. That is until they figure out what's what and mutiny.

I don't know if/how well this will work but I can see how it would appeal to Clyntahn. He's getting more Hitler-like with every passing week, and I doubt the people around him will be able to moderate him much longer. From Clyntahn's perspective the Temple Guard has failed God by not winning - Stand-and-die is just expiation for that failure. Harchong has always been his favorite, and their faith will make up for any material shortcomings.

The others may realize that Clyntahn's finally gone over the edge, but so long as the Inquisition stays loyal there's no obvious way to remove him. We may finally see what Duchairn has put together.

jms

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Re: (SPOILER) Political Consequences of the Military Defeat
by CJK » Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:50 am
CJK Captain (Junior Grade) Posts: 297 Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:47 pm	IMO a knockout blow is not in the cards, back in book 2 the text stated that the most CERTAIN way to destroy the CoGA is to destroy the ideals that it rests upon. Clyntahn's dispensations are doing exactly that and Clyntahn will continue doing this so long as he believes this is the only way to destroy Charis and Siddarmark. These dispensations however ONLY deal with the proscriptions, not the faith people have in the CoGA as THE ruling body of Safehold. IMO the way this is likely to happen is through the economic collapse of the CoGA, which is unavoidable at this point. IT is far better politically and for the Church of Charis that the CoGA is seen to fail utterly in carrying out its Langhorne mandated charge than for the Charisians to be seen winning by a sneak attack on the the most holy Temple of Zion.
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Re: (SPOILER) Political Consequences of the Military Defeat

by CJK » Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:50 am

CJK
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IMO a knockout blow is not in the cards, back in book 2 the text stated that the most CERTAIN way to destroy the CoGA is to destroy the ideals that it rests upon.

Clyntahn's dispensations are doing exactly that and Clyntahn will continue doing this so long as he believes this is the only way to destroy Charis and Siddarmark. These dispensations however ONLY deal with the proscriptions, not the faith people have in the CoGA as THE ruling body of Safehold.

IMO the way this is likely to happen is through the economic collapse of the CoGA, which is unavoidable at this point. IT is far better politically and for the Church of Charis that the CoGA is seen to fail utterly in carrying out its Langhorne mandated charge than for the Charisians to be seen winning by a sneak attack on the the most holy Temple of Zion.

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Re: (SPOILER) Political Consequences of the Military Defeat
by PeterZ » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:06 pm
PeterZ Fleet Admiral Posts: 6432 Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:11 pm Location: Colorado	CJK wrote:IMO a knockout blow is not in the cards, back in book 2 the text stated that the most CERTAIN way to destroy the CoGA is to destroy the ideals that it rests upon. Clyntahn's dispensations are doing exactly that and Clyntahn will continue doing this so long as he believes this is the only way to destroy Charis and Siddarmark. These dispensations however ONLY deal with the proscriptions, not the faith people have in the CoGA as THE ruling body of Safehold. IMO the way this is likely to happen is through the economic collapse of the CoGA, which is unavoidable at this point. IT is far better politically and for the Church of Charis that the CoGA is seen to fail utterly in carrying out its Langhorne mandated charge than for the Charisians to be seen winning by a sneak attack on the the most holy Temple of Zion. Agreed. Either the CoGA fails in executing the Jihad or admits publically that the Jihad was a mistake. Trouble is that if the CoGA fails, then the entire structure of the CoGA loses any semblance of authority. EVERYTHING falls apart and I believe whatever social tensions bubbling up in every kingdom will boil over into civil unrest. Civil unrest is likely too polite a word for it in places like Harchong and Desnair. Once those nations flame up the economic turmoil that will ignite will send most of the other nations boiling. Big, big problems. On the other hand if the CoGA does a mea culpa, they can retain some semblance of authority. Sure the Vicarate acceeded to Clyntahn's corruption, but they finally stopped it and are trying to make reforms that will mitigate the same thing happening again. Those reforms will allow the CoGA to mitigate the chaos a power vacuum would cause should the CoGA be destroyed utterly. Best example of what I mean is the consolidation in the most recent Iraq War. By disbanding the Iraqi Army, the US allowed a bunch of trained soldiers to wreak havoc. Had they instead kept them on the payroll doing something, there would have been fewer trained soldiers in the insurgency. Do the same thing with the CoGA. Keep them on the payroll but defang the Inquisition and the Temple Guard.
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Re: (SPOILER) Political Consequences of the Military Defeat

by PeterZ » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:06 pm

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CJK wrote:IMO a knockout blow is not in the cards, back in book 2 the text stated that the most CERTAIN way to destroy the CoGA is to destroy the ideals that it rests upon.

Clyntahn's dispensations are doing exactly that and Clyntahn will continue doing this so long as he believes this is the only way to destroy Charis and Siddarmark. These dispensations however ONLY deal with the proscriptions, not the faith people have in the CoGA as THE ruling body of Safehold.

IMO the way this is likely to happen is through the economic collapse of the CoGA, which is unavoidable at this point. IT is far better politically and for the Church of Charis that the CoGA is seen to fail utterly in carrying out its Langhorne mandated charge than for the Charisians to be seen winning by a sneak attack on the the most holy Temple of Zion.

Agreed. Either the CoGA fails in executing the Jihad or admits publically that the Jihad was a mistake.

Trouble is that if the CoGA fails, then the entire structure of the CoGA loses any semblance of authority. EVERYTHING falls apart and I believe whatever social tensions bubbling up in every kingdom will boil over into civil unrest. Civil unrest is likely too polite a word for it in places like Harchong and Desnair. Once those nations flame up the economic turmoil that will ignite will send most of the other nations boiling. Big, big problems.

On the other hand if the CoGA does a mea culpa, they can retain some semblance of authority. Sure the Vicarate acceeded to Clyntahn's corruption, but they finally stopped it and are trying to make reforms that will mitigate the same thing happening again. Those reforms will allow the CoGA to mitigate the chaos a power vacuum would cause should the CoGA be destroyed utterly.

Best example of what I mean is the consolidation in the most recent Iraq War. By disbanding the Iraqi Army, the US allowed a bunch of trained soldiers to wreak havoc. Had they instead kept them on the payroll doing something, there would have been fewer trained soldiers in the insurgency. Do the same thing with the CoGA. Keep them on the payroll but defang the Inquisition and the Temple Guard.

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Re: (SPOILER) Political Consequences of the Military Defeat
by Thucydides » Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:54 pm
Thucydides Captain of the List Posts: 689 Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:15 am	Some interesting discussions here. One thing we haven't really looked at is how the Empire may evolve in this period. While we are treated to the Imperial court as being competent, honourable and hard working people, there is no way to ensure that this will continue. As victories continue, some of the nobility and merchant class will see opportunities for self advancement and self enrichment either through political or economic manipulations at home or more likely abroad. Political factions and infighting may well begin to plague the Empire (particularly since it is stitched together from multiple recently independent Kingdoms, and also as a consequence of the long travel times for messages and orders to move from one end to the other), reducing efficiency and causing more attention to turn inwards rather than outwards. The fact that the CoGA's military abilities will be sharply limited may also cause the lower tiers of political and economic leadership to start seeing the war as a done deal and start jockeying for positions of power and influence in the post war order. One other factor which could cause interesting issues is the fact that the Imperial household essentially has a source of wealth independent from Parliament. On Earth, a lot of political evolution occurred as monarchs needed to raise cash from Parliament or the equivalent, changing the power dynamics in favour of Parliament or the Assembly. If the Imperial Household has access to vast reserves of wealth and cash outside of control by the Legislature, there is nothing to stop the Emperor from carrying out actions in his own right and with his own funds in defiance of Parliament, especially if he or the Empress are convinced of the need to take a particular action which Parliament does not agree with. This could set off several interesting situations within the Empire, up to and including a Civil War similar to the one which wracked England in the 1600's, ending with the execution of Charles I and the institution of Oliver Cromwell's Commonwealth, although this is a very extreme outlier as far as possibilities go.
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Re: (SPOILER) Political Consequences of the Military Defeat

by Thucydides » Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:54 pm

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Some interesting discussions here.

One thing we haven't really looked at is how the Empire may evolve in this period. While we are treated to the Imperial court as being competent, honourable and hard working people, there is no way to ensure that this will continue.

As victories continue, some of the nobility and merchant class will see opportunities for self advancement and self enrichment either through political or economic manipulations at home or more likely abroad. Political factions and infighting may well begin to plague the Empire (particularly since it is stitched together from multiple recently independent Kingdoms, and also as a consequence of the long travel times for messages and orders to move from one end to the other), reducing efficiency and causing more attention to turn inwards rather than outwards. The fact that the CoGA's military abilities will be sharply limited may also cause the lower tiers of political and economic leadership to start seeing the war as a done deal and start jockeying for positions of power and influence in the post war order.

One other factor which could cause interesting issues is the fact that the Imperial household essentially has a source of wealth independent from Parliament. On Earth, a lot of political evolution occurred as monarchs needed to raise cash from Parliament or the equivalent, changing the power dynamics in favour of Parliament or the Assembly. If the Imperial Household has access to vast reserves of wealth and cash outside of control by the Legislature, there is nothing to stop the Emperor from carrying out actions in his own right and with his own funds in defiance of Parliament, especially if he or the Empress are convinced of the need to take a particular action which Parliament does not agree with.

This could set off several interesting situations within the Empire, up to and including a Civil War similar to the one which wracked England in the 1600's, ending with the execution of Charles I and the institution of Oliver Cromwell's Commonwealth, although this is a very extreme outlier as far as possibilities go.

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Re: (SPOILER) Political Consequences of the Military Defeat
by SYED » Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:58 am
SYED Rear Admiral Posts: 1345 Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2011 11:03 pm	the church will punish the officers of any defeated force. they would likly be nobles so add to the number of enemies collecting, possibly not even direct opposition, but simply messing with their plans.
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Re: (SPOILER) Political Consequences of the Military Defeat

by SYED » Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:58 am

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Posts: 1345
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the church will punish the officers of any defeated force. they would likly be nobles so add to the number of enemies collecting, possibly not even direct opposition, but simply messing with their plans.

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Re: (SPOILER) Political Consequences of the Military Defeat
by PeterZ » Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:35 am
PeterZ Fleet Admiral Posts: 6432 Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:11 pm Location: Colorado	Thucydides wrote:Some interesting discussions here. One thing we haven't really looked at is how the Empire may evolve in this period. While we are treated to the Imperial court as being competent, honourable and hard working people, there is no way to ensure that this will continue. snip It appears that the Imperial Parliment will evolve into a very limited central government. Their focus will be on infrastructure, commerce/contract law and oversight of sobject kingdoms/principalities. The local governments would focus on variations of common law felonies and statutes. The Crown appears to be able to generate its own income base. Their access to the vast amounts of gold and silver means the House of Ahrmahk will be the central bank of Charis. That alone will provide the Crown with sufficient funds to field the Army and the Navy. The Church of Charis appears to be the primary provider of social services. It is NOT part of the Imperial government but functions parallel to government. Eventually, I can see more power being given to the Imperial Parliment and the local Parliments. The Crown and the Church will have their own bully pulpits to shape public opinion. The Crown will likely have a veto and some primacy in foreign policy. Parliment will likely have funding ability to defray some costs for maintaining the armed forces. I suspect the Imperial government will evolve into a Constitutional Monarchy at both the Imperial and local levels. I wouldn't doubt that the local Constitutions will be different from each other but have their cores consistent with the Imperial Constitution.
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Re: (SPOILER) Political Consequences of the Military Defeat

by PeterZ » Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:35 am

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6432
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:11 pm
Location: Colorado

Thucydides wrote:Some interesting discussions here.

One thing we haven't really looked at is how the Empire may evolve in this period. While we are treated to the Imperial court as being competent, honourable and hard working people, there is no way to ensure that this will continue.

snip

It appears that the Imperial Parliment will evolve into a very limited central government. Their focus will be on infrastructure, commerce/contract law and oversight of sobject kingdoms/principalities. The local governments would focus on variations of common law felonies and statutes.

The Crown appears to be able to generate its own income base. Their access to the vast amounts of gold and silver means the House of Ahrmahk will be the central bank of Charis. That alone will provide the Crown with sufficient funds to field the Army and the Navy.

The Church of Charis appears to be the primary provider of social services. It is NOT part of the Imperial government but functions parallel to government.

Eventually, I can see more power being given to the Imperial Parliment and the local Parliments. The Crown and the Church will have their own bully pulpits to shape public opinion. The Crown will likely have a veto and some primacy in foreign policy. Parliment will likely have funding ability to defray some costs for maintaining the armed forces.

I suspect the Imperial government will evolve into a Constitutional Monarchy at both the Imperial and local levels. I wouldn't doubt that the local Constitutions will be different from each other but have their cores consistent with the Imperial Constitution.

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(SPOILER) Political Consequences of the Military Defeat