First Technical Mission To Bolthole

Bill Woods wrote:

n7axw wrote:The thing that makes Mesa's ships so dangerous is the stealthiness. After Manties learn to spot the things, the problem they represent is solvable. Elizabeth commented in her speech following the Yawatta strike that the signature of the ships carrying out the strike had been identified. So repeat Yawatta would not occur without attackers being engaged.

Don

They'd identified the hyper footprint of the ships' dropping into normal space, but not the signature of the ships themselves. Which is a start, but doesn't let the Manties track the spider ships after they've arrived.

[Edit: Promotion -- woo hoo!]

Yep. Their current plan seems to involve sending significantly more response ships than before and blanketing the area around the hyper emergence signal with recon drones.

That should work, but it takes a lot of resources. (And of course a system sensor network that's capable of seeing hyper emergence far enough away to make it impractical to drop in beyond the the sensor range and come in in normal space)


That resource and sensor requirement means that their current response plan looks to only workable for a handful of their most critical systems. That should include any with major yards, but leave a lot of Talbott, Silesia, and secondary Havenite system vulnerable to pinprick raids from spider drive ships. A detector of spider drives themselves would be a very useful piece of kit; but probably not one they'll invent anytime soon.

Not really everybody has grasers. Who has spider drives?

MoH Chap 28 wrote:... They’d figured out how to squeeze what amounted to a cruiser-grade graser projector into something small enough to deploy independently.

The graser destroys the entire torp when it goes. Seeing as how the Mesian Alignment Navy didn't have a reliable detector for the spider drive when Oyster Bay was launched.

Its not a bug it is a feature. Though I bet it still has a suicide charge of some sort just in case.

Have fun,
T2M

kzt wrote:It's B. They want it to turn into slag, because they don't want anyone else to have beam grasers.

cthia wrote:It is from the wiki that I got info that the Detweiler Class are superdreadnaught sized ships.

The wiki is pretty good these days--a lot better than a few years ago. But it does still contain some errors, and this is one. We don't have any evidence from text or infodumps about the size of the Detweilers, except that they are bigger than the 4 megaton Sharks and large enough to have a useful number of graser torpedoes in internal magazines. Most speculation on this forum is that they could be considerably larger than superdreadnoughts because they don't need inertial compensators.

SWM wrote:

cthia wrote:It is from the wiki that I got info that the Detweiler Class are superdreadnaught sized ships.

The wiki is pretty good these days--a lot better than a few years ago. But it does still contain some errors, and this is one. We don't have any evidence from text or infodumps about the size of the Detweilers, except that they are bigger than the 4 megaton Sharks and large enough to have a useful number of graser torpedoes in internal magazines. Most speculation on this forum is that they could be considerably larger than superdreadnoughts because they don't need inertial compensators.

Thanks SWM for all the info.
Your posts are particularly informative.

As always, there's something I am missing.

SWM wrote:Actually, we don't know how big the Leonard Detweiler class is. There are no clues in the books, except that they are big enough to launch graser torps from internal magazines. Remember that they have no upper size limit imposed by inertial compensators. And there is no reason they couldn't have bubble sidewalls, perhaps even buckler sidewalls if they've figured out how to do them. As for being of no use once the GA was able to detect them, David once said that the Mesan Alignment would be stupid to build a large ship if it couldn't stand up to the wall of battle. Most of us don't think David is setting the Alignment up as stupid, so we surmise there are tum-te-tums coming up with the Detweilers.

The tum-te-tums concept is quite appealing.
Actually, I cannot get my niece to shut up about it.
She thinks the Mesan ships are going to show up with missiles that outrange Alliance missiles.

I argued that that would represent too much of a shift in the balance of power.

With your proposal she thinks it lends credence to her thinking...

Wait! Larger than superdreadnaughts?!
She thinks the significantly larger superdreadnaughts can carry significantly larger and longer ranged missiles.

"See Uncle...Tum-Te-Tum-Tum!"
Oh boy! Thanks SWM!

Tum-Te-Tum-Tum, Oh make her stop!

I suppose we are all in agreement of what the first order of business is for the technical minds (Hemphill, Foraker) of Bolthole.

Forumites, what form do you think this detection solution will ultimately take?

It seems the current response of blanketing the hyper emergence area with recon drones is both costly and inefficient...and could very well prove to be fatally ineffective.

Perhaps dedicated Ghost Rider like platforms seeded throughout systems, or perhaps the existing platforms can be altered for detection?

What do you think?

cthia wrote:The tum-te-tums concept is quite appealing.
Actually, I cannot get my niece to shut up about it.
She thinks the Mesan ships are going to show up with missiles that outrange Alliance missiles.

I argued that that would represent too much of a shift in the balance of power.

With your proposal she thinks it lends credence to her thinking...

Wait! Larger than superdreadnaughts?!
She thinks the significantly larger superdreadnaughts can carry significantly larger and longer ranged missiles.

Well they already seem to have one missile (well torpedo) that's longer ranged than Mantie MDMs. (or at least has a longer continuously powered range; once you can incorporate ballistic segments a missile's "range" become a bit of a nebulous concept)

But the real issue is fire control. Even with the Apollo FTL firecontrol there's a limit to how far you can effectively shoot (although in that case the current limit appears to be how far away the control missile can maintain an FTL link - Mycroft nodes acting as repeaters can extend that range across a system. Of course even with FTL the further your control loop the more latency there is)

There's no indication that the MAlign is anywhere near a breakthrough in FTL firecontrol, so even normal MDM ranges start outstripping effective fire control. So just making an even longer ranged missile is a very limited benefit.



But now that you brought it up, I wonder if the MAlign plan is to routinely operate Detwillers with Ghost-class scouts. That could let the Detwiller hang way back and basically blindfire conventional MDMs forward, while letting Ghosts which had snuck relatively close to the targets handle terminal firecontrol. That would let you handle very long range fire while still having low latency firecontrol... And if the Ghosts are just talking to the missiles I think they'd still be pretty hard for the defenders to pick up and counterattack.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:The tum-te-tums concept is quite appealing.
Actually, I cannot get my niece to shut up about it.
She thinks the Mesan ships are going to show up with missiles that outrange Alliance missiles.

I argued that that would represent too much of a shift in the balance of power.

With your proposal she thinks it lends credence to her thinking...

Wait! Larger than superdreadnaughts?!
She thinks the significantly larger superdreadnaughts can carry significantly larger and longer ranged missiles.

Well they already seem to have one missile (well torpedo) that's longer ranged than Mantie MDMs. (or at least has a longer continuously powered range; once you can incorporate ballistic segments a missile's "range" become a bit of a nebulous concept)

But the real issue is fire control. Even with the Apollo FTL firecontrol there's a limit to how far you can effectively shoot (although in that case the current limit appears to be how far away the control missile can maintain an FTL link - Mycroft nodes acting as repeaters can extend that range across a system. Of course even with FTL the further your control loop the more latency there is)

There's no indication that the MAlign is anywhere near a breakthrough in FTL firecontrol, so even normal MDM ranges start outstripping effective fire control. So just making an even longer ranged missile is a very limited benefit.



But now that you brought it up, I wonder if the MAlign plan is to routinely operate Detwillers with Ghost-class scouts. That could let the Detwiller hang way back and basically blindfire conventional MDMs forward, while letting Ghosts which had snuck relatively close to the targets handle terminal firecontrol. That would let you handle very long range fire while still having low latency firecontrol... And if the Ghosts are just talking to the missiles I think they'd still be pretty hard for the defenders to pick up and counterattack.

You know, I seriously didn't consider fire control.
Although my niece mentioned that the MAlign could deploy their own Ghost Rider like platforms. I dismissed it out of hand.

However, your proposal of Ghost Ships operating in that manner are tantamount to the same Ghost Rider concept!
She will never let me live this down.
Told u so told u so told u so!

Frightening!...
-the possibility.
-her insight.

Jonathan_S wrote:Well they already seem to have one missile (well torpedo) that's longer ranged than Mantie MDMs. (or at least has a longer continuously powered range; once you can incorporate ballistic segments a missile's "range" become a bit of a nebulous concept)

But the real issue is fire control. Even with the Apollo FTL firecontrol there's a limit to how far you can effectively shoot (although in that case the current limit appears to be how far away the control missile can maintain an FTL link - Mycroft nodes acting as repeaters can extend that range across a system. Of course even with FTL the further your control loop the more latency there is)

There's no indication that the MAlign is anywhere near a breakthrough in FTL firecontrol, so even normal MDM ranges start outstripping effective fire control. So just making an even longer ranged missile is a very limited benefit.



But now that you brought it up, I wonder if the MAlign plan is to routinely operate Detwillers with Ghost-class scouts. That could let the Detwiller hang way back and basically blindfire conventional MDMs forward, while letting Ghosts which had snuck relatively close to the targets handle terminal firecontrol. That would let you handle very long range fire while still having low latency firecontrol... And if the Ghosts are just talking to the missiles I think they'd still be pretty hard for the defenders to pick up and counterattack.

Let's not forget that the Graser Torp, like all spider drive hardware, has lower acceleration than normal Honorverse ships. While not limited by Grav plates, the Spider still only had a top accel of 200-250 Gs IIRC, so every Honorverse ship but 8Mton freighters can outpace them. It's an assination weapon, NOT a fleet fighter. In essence, The Graser Torp is the MAN equivalent of Manticore's Missletoe. The Cataphracts have essentially the same envelope as the Manty Extended Range Missiles, though with quite different flight performance, and a less effective payload.

So unless the MAN has smething else up their sleeves, they do not have a direct competitor to the GA's DDMs, MDMs, and 4 stage System Defense MDMs.

Theemile wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Well they already seem to have one missile (well torpedo) that's longer ranged than Mantie MDMs. (or at least has a longer continuously powered range; once you can incorporate ballistic segments a missile's "range" become a bit of a nebulous concept)

But the real issue is fire control. Even with the Apollo FTL firecontrol there's a limit to how far you can effectively shoot (although in that case the current limit appears to be how far away the control missile can maintain an FTL link - Mycroft nodes acting as repeaters can extend that range across a system. Of course even with FTL the further your control loop the more latency there is)

There's no indication that the MAlign is anywhere near a breakthrough in FTL firecontrol, so even normal MDM ranges start outstripping effective fire control. So just making an even longer ranged missile is a very limited benefit.



But now that you brought it up, I wonder if the MAlign plan is to routinely operate Detwillers with Ghost-class scouts. That could let the Detwiller hang way back and basically blindfire conventional MDMs forward, while letting Ghosts which had snuck relatively close to the targets handle terminal firecontrol. That would let you handle very long range fire while still having low latency firecontrol... And if the Ghosts are just talking to the missiles I think they'd still be pretty hard for the defenders to pick up and counterattack.

Let's not forget that the Graser Torp, like all spider drive hardware, has lower acceleration than normal Honorverse ships. While not limited by Grav plates, the Spider still only had a top accel of 200-250 Gs IIRC, so every Honorverse ship but 8Mton freighters can outpace them. It's an assination weapon, NOT a fleet fighter. In essence, The Graser Torp is the MAN equivalent of Manticore's Missletoe. The Cataphracts have essentially the same envelope as the Manty Extended Range Missiles, though with quite different flight performance, and a less effective payload.

So unless the MAN has smething else up their sleeves, they do not have a direct competitor to the GA's DDMs, MDMs, and 4 stage System Defense MDMs.

My niece is considering much longer legged conventional missiles as those supplied by Technodyne, significantly upgraded.

She says that the MAlign are saving the better missiles for themselves!

cthia wrote:My niece is considering much longer legged conventional missiles as those supplied by Technodyne, significantly upgraded.

She says that the MAlign are saving the better missiles for themselves!

A single drive missile with the range equal or better to an MDM would be an amazing breakthrough.

Personally, given the range limits of Manticoran ERMs, I'd find it more likely if the MAlign came up with (or stole) the trick for making MDMs. (But who knows)


But I certainly agree with your niece that the MAlign probably is holding their best weapons for themselves.

Yes they used Cataphracts during Oyster Bay (which in some ways I think was a mistake) but given the mission profile, and the fact that the missiles were backups to the untried graser torps, they didn't really need to show off their best hardware for that mission.

cthia wrote:

Theemile wrote:
Let's not forget that the Graser Torp, like all spider drive hardware, has lower acceleration than normal Honorverse ships. While not limited by Grav plates, the Spider still only had a top accel of 200-250 Gs IIRC, so every Honorverse ship but 8Mton freighters can outpace them. It's an assination weapon, NOT a fleet fighter. In essence, The Graser Torp is the MAN equivalent of Manticore's Missletoe. The Cataphracts have essentially the same envelope as the Manty Extended Range Missiles, though with quite different flight performance, and a less effective payload.

So unless the MAN has smething else up their sleeves, they do not have a direct competitor to the GA's DDMs, MDMs, and 4 stage System Defense MDMs.

My niece is considering much longer legged conventional missiles as those supplied by Technodyne, significantly upgraded.

She says that the MAlign are saving the better missiles for themselves!

It would have to be several breakthroughs - a Longer ranged missile mean it needs more power to power the impellers and longer lasting nodes. Manticore's breakthroughs in super conductors and microfusion reactors either only give 10's of seconds more to a missile or are still too large to scale down to a single drive missile.And then you still run into the control issue the GA powers had been facing with MDMs pre-apollo

We havn't seen any of these 3 breakthroughs, so my money is still on us not seeing any magic MAN missilea appear on the battlefield anytime soon.

My personal feeling on why the Cataphracts have been seen all over the place is to hide their true origin - that way when the Renasaince Factor's conventional fleets are equipped with them, there is no smoking gun linking the Spider attacks with the RF - everyone would think they both must had access to SLN military hardware, pure and simple, but no more.