SPOILER: Go4 Discussions after AoS and IHA defeats

I could be mistaken on this, but I don't think that war will come to a negotiated end. I think Zion will eventually be in the position of Berlin in 1945. From the Temple's point of view, this is Jihad, after all. Can't negotiate without being unfaithful to God. And from Charis' point of view, a negotiated peace which leaves the political power of the Temple in place and the inquisition intact is completely unacceptable and what Charis and Siddarmark will find when they liberate the concentration camps will only reinforce that.

This one is for ALL the marbles, gang. The only way I see this averted is with a sucessful revolution in the Temple Lands that completely sweeps the Temple's present management away.

Don

I don't agree, Don. The Book of Schueler was appended to the Writ after Shan-wei's rebellion. Just as Shan-wei was an archangel subject to being falible, so is Schueler. If archangels are falible, then so are mortal men like Clyntahn.

If the CoGA blames Clyntahn and the well intended but faulty Book of Schueler, they don't have to be unfaithful to God. Matter of fact, the reformers might well argue that God used the reformers to set right the errors initiated by the Book of Schueler. Clyntahn used that faulty teaching to strengthen himself at the cost of the CoGA.

Thhe negotiated settlement then would require fixing the Book of Schueler if not outright rejecting it. This process is important because it sets the precindent of humanity passing judgement on elements of thr Writ. Duchairn would use this opportinity to try to strengthen the CoGA by reducing the ability for clergy to engage in corruption. That openess to reform and (potential) openess to re-interpret the Writ's Books spells the death of the CoGA's absolute authority over the interpretations of the Writ.

In many ways the rejection of the Inquisition's primacy for forming and enforcing interpretations of thr Writ is the cnetral goal. Once that is accomplished, the CoGA's moral authority to compel obediance has become much more circumspect. I believe that even if Zion is not invaded but the Inquisition is defanged in this way, Charis will have won round one.

Assuming that the return might be triggered by a conquest of Zion, it would be a safer strategy to aim for defanging the Inquisition and instigating greater freedom in religious interpretation.

n7axw wrote:I could be mistaken on this, but I don't think that war will come to a negotiated end. I think Zion will eventually be in the position of Berlin in 1945. From the Temple's point of view, this is Jihad, after all. Can't negotiate without being unfaithful to God. And from Charis' point of view, a negotiated peace which leaves the political power of the Temple in place and the inquisition intact is completely unacceptable and what Charis and Siddarmark will find when they liberate the concentration camps will only reinforce that.

This one is for ALL the marbles, gang. The only way I see this averted is with a sucessful revolution in the Temple Lands that completely sweeps the Temple's present management away.

Don

n7axw wrote:I could be mistaken on this, but I don't think that war will come to a negotiated end. I think Zion will eventually be in the position of Berlin in 1945. From the Temple's point of view, this is Jihad, after all. Can't negotiate without being unfaithful to God. And from Charis' point of view, a negotiated peace which leaves the political power of the Temple in place and the inquisition intact is completely unacceptable and what Charis and Siddarmark will find when they liberate the concentration camps will only reinforce that.

This one is for ALL the marbles, gang. The only way I see this averted is with a sucessful revolution in the Temple Lands that completely sweeps the Temple's present management away.

Don

I totally agree with you, but the last time I stated such I was strongly outvoted. I don't think too many of the forum really understand what a declaration of Jihad means in a religious society.

I'm sorry, Peter. I disagree. This one goes bone deep on both sides. No amount of lawyering can change that because there arrives a point where rational discussion means nothing.

So, I stand by my post. It's RFC's universe, after all. We'll just have wait and see how RFC resolves the matter. (shrug)

Don

PeterZ wrote:I don't agree, Don. The Book of Schueler was appended to the Writ after Shan-wei's rebellion. Just as Shan-wei was an archangel subject to being falible, so is Schueler. I i f archangels are falible, then so are mortal men like Clyntahn.

If the CoGA blames Clyntahn and the well intended but faulty Book of Schueler, they don't have to be unfaithful to God. Matter of fact, the reformers might well argue that God used the reformers to set right the errors initiated by the Book of Schueler. Clyntahn used that faulty teaching to strengthen himself at the cost of the CoGA.

Thhe negotiated settlement then would require fixing the Book of Schueler if not outright rejecting it. This process is important because it sets the precindent of humanity passing judgement on elements of thr Writ. Duchairn would use this opportinity to try to strengthen the CoGA by reducing the ability for clergy to engage in corruption. That openess to reform and (potential) openess to re-interpret the Writ's Books spells the death of the CoGA's absolute authority over the interpretations of the Writ.

In many ways the rejection of the Inquisition's primacy for forming and enforcing interpretations of thr Writ is the cnetral goal. Once that is accomplished, the CoGA's moral authority to compel obediance has become much more circumspect. I believe that even if Zion is not invaded but the Inquisition is defanged in this way, Charis will have won round one.

Assuming that the return might be triggered by a conquest of Zion, it would be a safer strategy to aim for defanging the Inquisition and instigating greater freedom in religious interpretation.

n7axw wrote:I could be mistaken on this, but I don't think that war will come to a negotiated end. I think Zion will eventually be in the position of Berlin in 1945. From the Temple's point of view, this is Jihad, after all. Can't negotiate without being unfaithful to God. And from Charis' point of view, a negotiated peace which leaves the political power of the Temple in place and the inquisition intact is completely unacceptable and what Charis and Siddarmark will find when they liberate the concentration camps will only reinforce that.

This one is for ALL the marbles, gang. The only way I see this averted is with a sucessful revolution in the Temple Lands that completely sweeps the Temple's present management away.

Don

ksandgren wrote:

n7axw wrote:I could be mistaken on this, but I don't think that war will come to a negotiated end. I think Zion will eventually be in the position of Berlin in 1945. From the Temple's point of view, this is Jihad, after all. Can't negotiate without being unfaithful to God. And from Charis' point of view, a negotiated peace which leaves the political power of the Temple in place and the inquisition intact is completely unacceptable and what Charis and Siddarmark will find when they liberate the concentration camps will only reinforce that.

This one is for ALL the marbles, gang. The only way I see this averted is with a sucessful revolution in the Temple Lands that completely sweeps the Temple's present management away.

Don

I totally agree with you, but the last time I stated such I was strongly outvoted. I don't think too many of the forum really understand what a declaration of Jihad means in a religious society.

I think the difference between declaring a just jihad and having some corrupt SOB co-opt the authority of the curch to launch a jihad is significant. If the Curch accepts responsibility for launching the Jihad unjustly because of Clyntahn's corrupt actions, the Jihad is invalid as a holy war. The participants might not be held at fault for meeting their legal obligations to the CoGA. The G4 would be held accountable for many things including acquiescing to an unjust jihad.

The CoGA would suffer further erosion of their authority. I am not sure Magwair would accept responsibility for the attrocities commited in the name of the CoGA. Duchairn would. If Duchairn did succeed in launching a coup and did accept his share of the responsibility for the false Jihad, I think the Vicarate just might survive to carry on the CoGA.

What sort of punishment would be meted out? Would the Grand Vicar offer pardons? There will be many questions but there will be no question that an external source to the CoGA was needed to correct the CoGA's excesses. That knowledge would justify the CoC's resistance to CoGA corruption.

n7axw wrote:I'm sorry, Peter. I disagree. This one goes bone deep on both sides. No amount of lawyering can change that because there arrives a point where rational discussion means nothing.

So, I stand by my post. It's RFC's universe, after all. We'll just have wait and see how RFC resolves the matter. (shrug)

Don

Yes, it does go bone deep. Yet, not matter how deep the hatred it must stop at some point. If the Jihad is just, then the true believers of God MUST NEVER surrender. There can be no forgiveness. The only way to have peace is to have peace over the graves of all the participants on one side.

The alternative is to admit the Jihad was unjust. It was not the declared will of God. It was not the honest and just response by the CoGA to documented evil. These are the two options.

The CoC cannot give the loyalists room because any room given will be used to try and kill the servants of evil as defined by the Jihad. The CoGA MUST accept option 2 or the jihad goes on forever. Even after the CoGA heirarchy is destroyed, Charis can never have legitimacy in the eyes of most mainlanders. When the CoGA accepts option 2, then Charis has the legitimacy to be self governing in the eyes of most Safeholdians.

n7axw wrote:This one is for ALL the marbles, gang. The only way I see this averted is with a sucessful revolution in the Temple Lands that completely sweeps the Temple's present management away.

Don

I agree - the only way for the Jihad to end, is for either:

a) the Temple forces totally surrender (which would involve an invasion, not just of the Temple, but of all supporting nations); OR
b) the current management is replaced (by internal forces), with the Jihad being retracted (as it was declared by "mistake" by the previous corrupt leaders).

Of the two, I believe that b) is more likely.

While Clyntahn is in charge or the Inquisition has a strong hold on power within the CoGA the options really ARE total victory or total destruction for one side or the other.

However once you start leaving the Clyntahn world behind things start opening up, for instance the fact that every Island nation left the CoGA with hardly any resistance at all is a nice indicator that faith in the CoGA at least is not strong at all. Charis has already made the difference between God and the CoGA clear, plus even the mainland is aware of the systematic abuse the clergy has made in power. As an aside pretty much every time a religion (Christianity especially) became too corrupt a new version was able to move in and take over as people became disillusioned. That process has already started in Safehold, especially as the Siddarmark Republic is NOT following the Church of Charis as their new Church, they will make their own variation likely as Reformists Something.

This will become MUCH more popular once people realize that the alternative for many mainland nations is to charge in with muskets, maybe flintlock smooth-bores against the full range of toys Charis currently has. Suicide IS forbidden in the writ after all and at this moment there are 2 nations able to build the weapons necessary to fight Charis; the Temple Lands and Dohlar. The border states, Harchong and Desnair specifically have all failed to build up the weaponry needed to fight Charis.

A good example here is King Zhames of Delfarahk and his wife, even after twice having Charis go in and wreck parts of his kingdom he wants NO part of the Jihad. Even his wife who is VERY devout does not consider the Jihad a good idea, or approve of the actions taken by the Inquisition. All indications from the text says Zhames will carry out every order Clyntahn sends and do his absolute best to stay out of the way of EITHER Charis or the CoGA. Which he probably can do because like many of the nations on the mainland Delfarahk cannot afford the army needed to fight Chairs and Duchairn and Magwair will see this very quickly.

Faith IMO comes second to the practicalities of waging war, even most die hard fanatics are not going to think that kicking the sleeping dragon whilst buck naked and no weapon is what the writ demands.

Yep, it's going to be interesting seeing how DW works this one out. You do remember that Clyntahn didn't call this Jihad; the Grand Vicar did, speaking from his throne with all the infallible authority of his office and Mother Church? That's a whole lot to roll back on. Also a whole lot of people, Vicars not excepted, do believe this is a totally just Jihad. You only have to look at what the EoC have done to the proscriptions (without the legitimate and for-the-war-only dispensations the loyal sons of the church have been given by Vicar Clyntahn) and to the legitimate hierarchy of the church in the lands they control to see why the Jihad is right.

Just a couple of thoughts... Up until 15th and 16th centuries, Catholic Church was quite good at embracing reform movements. Many of catholicisms major orders began with the reformist vision of someone like Francis or Dominic. The Reformation caught Rome at a time of comparative weakness and vulnerability as she struggled not only with reformers, but with the enlightenment. She did regroup, however, with the Counter-Reformation. The dream of reuniting the Church was never realized, but she did manage to restore order in her own house by getting a handle on corruption, educating priests and getting genuinely spiritual people into positions of leadership.

With respect to COGA, remember that its hold on out islands was always weaker than on mainland. Several factors contributed to this. The first would be distance. It simply was not possible to maintain the same degree of control as on the mainland. Places like Charis, Emerald and Chisholm had higher percentage of native born priests and bishops. And, as Zion was to discover to its dismay, vast stretches of salt water tended to isolate islanders from the consequences of things Zion didn't like. The inccresing dominance of Charis' navy heavily reinforced was already to some extent true. Contrast how CoC was introduced comparatively peacefully with what happened in Siddarmark, for example. The difference? Salt water. No way for the sword of Schuler to strike Charis as long as the only way of getting there required a ship.

Don