Mending fences

Haven getting huffy about Manticore not negotiating with them has always been a sore point with me. Haven started the darn thing out of pure greed and aggression way back when. They have raped and murdered dozens of other star nations and now they are upset their latest target has actually resisted successfully and now will not be 'reasonable' and reach an accord with them???? Oh really?

That is precisely like a many times convicted serial rapist getting mad and all righteous because the one who fought him off won't play kumbaya kiss face with her rapist... or his rapist. Men get that, too, I know. Pah-lease.

Doesn't wash. Yes High Ridge was slime. Beside the point on this. Frankly, if Manticore wanted to throw insults at Haven for the next century or so they would be justified in doing so. People who are serial rapists and murderers, as Haven is, do not have the right to get all huffy. eh.

See why I am not a diplomat?

I am glad all that is over but Manticore has been a lot more reasonable visavis Haven than yours truly would be without the pressure of the Solarians going bugtweedle crazy lately, plus the revelations about the MA. Pritchart seriously needs to get off her high horse.

I would really like to see some genuine remorse out of her toward Manticore. Some genuine acknowledgement of Haven's disgusting behavior toward not only the Manties, but all those other star nations Haven has raped, pillaged and enslaved. That needs to be said to begin healing things within Haven, She needs to tell those people Haven was wrong, because Haven was wrong. Haven is guilty of atrocities and millions of deaths. Millions.

Northstar wrote:Haven getting huffy about Manticore not negotiating with them has always been a sore point with me. Haven started the darn thing out of pure greed and aggression way back when. They have raped and murdered dozens of other star nations and now they are upset their latest target has actually resisted successfully and now will not be 'reasonable' and reach an accord with them???? Oh really?

That is precisely like a many times convicted serial rapist getting mad and all righteous because the one who fought him off won't play kumbaya kiss face with her rapist... or his rapist. Men get that, too, I know. Pah-lease.

Doesn't wash. Yes High Ridge was slime. Beside the point on this. Frankly, if Manticore wanted to throw insults at Haven for the next century or so they would be justified in doing so. People who are serial rapists and murderers, as Haven is, do not have the right to get all huffy. eh.

See why I am not a diplomat?

I am glad all that is over but Manticore has been a lot more reasonable visavis Haven than yours truly would be without the pressure of the Solarians going bugtweedle crazy lately, plus the revelations about the MA. Pritchart seriously needs to get off her high horse.

I would really like to see some genuine remorse out of her toward Manticore. Some genuine acknowledgement of Haven's disgusting behavior toward not only the Manties, but all those other star nations Haven has raped, pillaged and enslaved. That needs to be said to begin healing things within Haven, She needs to tell those people Haven was wrong, because Haven was wrong. Haven is guilty of atrocities and millions of deaths. Millions.

There's a reason the Republic of Haven is about 150 systems strong while the People's Republic at its peak had over 300.

They fought that multi-cornered civil war not to keep their systems together, but to get rid of the StateSec scum who had taken over. I suspect that civil war is their form of apology.

The trouble began when they ran out of SS-occupied systems to liberate, with the only "Havenite" territory under occupation being those seized by the Manticoran Alliance. Not all of them wanted to return, but a few did and a few others would've preferred independence from both sides.

Northstar wrote:I would really like to see some genuine remorse out of her toward Manticore.

The Old Cynic says: Anyone who apologizes for someone else's actions is either manipulating their target or playing to the audience. Check your bank account and whether you've still got all the fillings in your teeth.

JohnRoth wrote:

Northstar wrote:I would really like to see some genuine remorse out of her toward Manticore.

The Old Cynic says: Anyone who apologizes for someone else's actions is either manipulating their target or playing to the audience. Check your bank account and whether you've still got all the fillings in your teeth.

With the exception of the fiasco with the diplomatic correspondence which did happen on her watch, Pritchard owes no apologies to any one. Her trip to Manticore and conversation with Elizabeth seems to me to have resolved that one. Resuming the war after High Ridge refused to negotiate a peace was a valid thing for her to do even without her impression that Manties falsified the diplomatic correspondence.

It seems to me like the Pritchard Administration is being conflated with the Legislaturists and the Committee for Public Safety here which Elizabeth was doing following the collapse of the Torch summit. For the reader to do that at this point in the story seems a bit odd. Haven has just volunteered to stand with Manticore in its confrontation with the League. Most surely that must go a teeny-weeny distance toward making amends--or so it seems to me.

Don

n7axw wrote:

JohnRoth wrote:
The Old Cynic says: Anyone who apologizes for someone else's actions is either manipulating their target or playing to the audience. Check your bank account and whether you've still got all the fillings in your teeth.

With the exception of the fiasco with the diplomatic correspondence which did happen on her watch, Pritchard owes no apologies to any one. Her trip to Manticore and conversation with Elizabeth seems to me to have resolved that one. Resuming the war after High Ridge refused to negotiate a peace was a valid thing for her to do even without her impression that Manties falsified the diplomatic correspondence.

It seems to me like the Pritchard Administration is being conflated with the Legislaturists and the Committee for Public Safety here which Elizabeth was doing following the collapse of the Torch summit. For the reader to do that at this point in the story seems a bit odd. Haven has just volunteered to stand with Manticore in its confrontation with the League. Most surely that must go a teeny-weeny distance toward making amends--or so it seems to me.

Don

The bolding and underlining is mine.
You seem to be missing my point /as it was me that started this particular branch in the discussion, and it was not precisely 100% on topic - sorry /. I do not say amends were not made. I am simply sharing my personal feeling that there is something missing in some characters' thoughts and actions that prevents me from fully accepting them as who I think RFC meant them to be.

1.) Pritchard and her cabinet are claiming responsibility for the star systems under Manticoran occupation. That is a main reason she's pissed. Those systems /most of them, if not all/ were not acquired by her government, but by the Legislaturalists, and with the threat or application of force. I can accept that the former Republic of Haven was somewhere between 6 and 12 star system policy before it turned into the PRH, but no bigger than that, and I am being generous here.
Now, if she can claim ownership of those systems, forcefuly acquired by previous governments, she /and her govt./ should also accept responsibility for those governments' other actions and their consequences - you can't have it both ways.

2.) A factor in the decision to start op.Thunderbolt without a declaration of war was the thinking that Haven and Manticore had not in fact completed the previous one - a war which was started by a previous govt. and continued without any effort to stop it by another previous govt. So the same govt. that will not take responsibility for its predecessors's actions is using those same actions as a sort of excuse.

3.) A major factor in making the decision to start preparations to go back to war with Manticore /before the diplomatic correspondence incident/ was the fear that Pritchard's govt. /and with it the constitution and the new republic/ would not be able to survive the pressure of the public opinion - which public opinion included a very real hatred for Manticore and all things Manticoran - if said govt. did something like bend under the pressure and say, agree to all or most of the Manticoran conditions. Considering that nobody even thought to do anything to dissipate that hatred - which was absolutely unjustified - well... I mean, people in the books are talking about how the ordinary Joe in the street feels about the Manties, but no one seems to think it is their fault that Joe still feels that way, and that nothing was done to explain to him that he is wrong is his feelings.

I am not blaming Pritchard and her govt. for what happen before her term at the wheel. I agree she did a lot to alleviate her actions later. I am saying that I feel there should have been at least an internal admission of mistakes like p.3), and maybe a bit more readiness to accept responsibility as mentioned in p.1).
Now, she and Tom did feel guilty they were going back to war and were to hit without notice - but /as far as I remember/ only for general reasons like not really wanting to go to war again and to kill any more people. Which is good for them. What I expect to see from such people is some guilt that they are forced to have to start killing the same people who already were a victim of a very similar attack from the same star nation /under whatever government/ before through no fault of their own. The same people who could have annihilated Haven, but didn't. I don't expect that guilt to overcome their duty - I don't think it can or should - but I feel it should have been there.

I do not say such thoughts would or should have changed their final decisions. What I feel missing is
an admition that along with using the good things from the past a nation and a government should also accept responsibility for the bad ones, and
a feeling of guilt that for whatever reasons Haven was again preparing to save itself by making /the same/ others bleed.

I'm just going to add a couple of points here. The diplomatic correspondence not withstanding, the primary cause of the war's resumption was that High Ridge and Decroix refused to treat the Republic like a legitimate government and negotiate a peace treaty in good faith. The business with the correspondence was really just a trip wire, adding fuel to frustrations that were already at a boiling point. Had I been in the Republic's shoes knowing what Pritchard at least believed she knew, I probably would have been looking to my military options as well.

And I might add, it wasn't as though Haven didn't try. Indeed, they did almost everything but give Manticore their war plan.

Now I won't deny that there was plenty of hatred of Manticore going around. Two decades of war will tend to produce that result, justified or not. In fact it was on both sides. Elizabeth herself indulged in a lot of hatred of Haven for understanable reasons and at least in the business of the collapse of the Torch summit allowed that hatred and distrust to drive policy When she ordered the attack om Lovat.

Don

kiddmeier wrote:1.) Pritchard and her cabinet are claiming responsibility for the star systems under Manticoran occupation. That is a main reason she's pissed. Those systems /most of them, if not all/ were not acquired by her government, but by the Legislaturalists, and with the threat or application of force. I can accept that the former Republic of Haven was somewhere between 6 and 12 star system policy before it turned into the PRH, but no bigger than that, and I am being generous here.
Now, if she can claim ownership of those systems, forcefuly acquired by previous governments, she /and her govt./ should also accept responsibility for those governments' other actions and their consequences - you can't have it both ways.

Actually, you can. Pritchart is claiming a responsibility to those systems - Haven conquered them, so Haven has the obligation of seeing to it that they get the chance to express their wishes. Manticore is refusing to do anything more than occupy the systems ("anything more" including negotiating to have elections that Manticore, Haven, and the systems in question all agree are fair). The current government had nothing to do with the earlier governments - and has spent blood and treasure to destroy the previous government (remember the civil war? All other factions where State Security or rogue Naval forces, which Theisman crushed - and then let the liberated systems vote on being Havenite or free.)

kiddmeier wrote:2.) A factor in the decision to start op.Thunderbolt without a declaration of war was the thinking that Haven and Manticore had not in fact completed the previous one - a war which was started by a previous govt. and continued without any effort to stop it by another previous govt. So the same govt. that will not take responsibility for its predecessors's actions is using those same actions as a sort of excuse.

Manticore feels the war continues to exist. Why shouldn't Haven accept that fact? (Also, I'm a little vague on the second half of your statement here - could you clarify/expand it, please?)

akira.taylor wrote:

kiddmeier wrote:1.) Pritchard and her cabinet are claiming responsibility for the star systems under Manticoran occupation. That is a main reason she's pissed. Those systems /most of them, if not all/ were not acquired by her government, but by the Legislaturalists, and with the threat or application of force. I can accept that the former Republic of Haven was somewhere between 6 and 12 star system policy before it turned into the PRH, but no bigger than that, and I am being generous here.
Now, if she can claim ownership of those systems, forcefuly acquired by previous governments, she /and her govt./ should also accept responsibility for those governments' other actions and their consequences - you can't have it both ways.

Actually, you can. Pritchart is claiming a responsibility to those systems - Haven conquered them, so Haven has the obligation of seeing to it that they get the chance to express their wishes. Manticore is refusing to do anything more than occupy the systems ("anything more" including negotiating to have elections that Manticore, Haven, and the systems in question all agree are fair). The current government had nothing to do with the earlier governments - and has spent blood and treasure to destroy the previous government (remember the civil war? All other factions where State Security or rogue Naval forces, which Theisman crushed - and then let the liberated systems vote on being Havenite or free.)

kiddmeier wrote:2.) A factor in the decision to start op.Thunderbolt without a declaration of war was the thinking that Haven and Manticore had not in fact completed the previous one - a war which was started by a previous govt. and continued without any effort to stop it by another previous govt. So the same govt. that will not take responsibility for its predecessors's actions is using those same actions as a sort of excuse.

Manticore feels the war continues to exist. Why shouldn't Haven accept that fact? (Also, I'm a little vague on the second half of your statement here - could you clarify/expand it, please?)

1. The bolding is mine - that's why you can't have it both ways. If Haven - e.g. previous Haven governments - conquered them, and this government has obligations for them, then it should /well, I think it should/ follow that this government in fact has something to do with previous ones. And if it chooses to have something in common with those, then I can't see how it has the right to choose which parts to share and which to discard. Don't you agree?
I am not blaming the people in the govt. for what happened before their term. I am saying that as a govt. they either accept all the legacy of their star nation - the good and the bad, or they limit the scope of what they feel they are owed as respect. I do not want/expect any significant actions on their part that will change the outcome from the one described in the books - what I lack is the admition, albeit only as a thought or a conversation.
To most people outside Haven it does not matter worth a damn which Haven government screwed up and how long and hard the current one had to fight its civil war.
Check out what the rest of the world's reaction was when the Bolsheviks took power in Russia and declined to accept the previous govt.'s obligations. Well, that is quite a radical example with little cause/effect connection to the events we are discussing, but what it shows is just how justified the "it is not this govt.'s fault/decision/whatever" can be from the outside.


2. When Pritchart and Theisman are discussing preparations for military action against Manticore /pre-diplomatic correspondence mess/. Tom warned Eloise that most probably if they wanted the attack to work it had to be done without warning. I can't temember who said what after that, but one excuse that was mentioned for the warning not being actually needed that much, was the fact that they were de facto still at war.
A war, you might remember, that the current Haven govt. did not start, but is feeling free to use as a justification. It is not that they don't have the right, it is that this one right they accept, but other responsibilities not so much.

n7axw wrote:I'm just going to add a couple of points here. The diplomatic correspondence not withstanding, the primary cause of the war's resumption was that High Ridge and Decroix refused to treat the Republic like a legitimate government and negotiate a peace treaty in good faith. The business with the correspondence was really just a trip wire, adding fuel to frustrations that were already at a boiling point. Had I been in the Republic's shoes knowing what Pritchard at least believed she knew, I probably would have been looking to my military options as well.

And I might add, it wasn't as though Haven didn't try. Indeed, they did almost everything but give Manticore their war plan.

The primary reason Pritchard's cabinet /well - the decent human beings in it at least/ felt it had to go to war was - as I see it - the fact that almost any other reaction to the way High Ridge's government was /or was not/ negotiating would have caused a very probable fall of the cabinet, followed by the collpse of the new/old Constitution and the republic itself. They felt this was their only option do save their star nation. I even think that at that point they were right - as there was no time to do anything else. However...
Nobody in the past 3 or 4 years before that felt the need to at least try and change the internal political situation, so that there would not be so much pressure and so much hatred against Manticore.
4 years ago Manticore could have annihilated Haven, bit did not. For 4 years, nobody made an effort to explain to the Haven population what had happened, who was responsible for the war, who were the good guys and the bad guys and so forth.
For most of those 4 years, nobody makes much of a fuss that there is no respect from Manticore.
They were ready to accept the way High Ridge treated them for years without much complain - as long as it was in their favor, and when it stopped suiting them, they suddenly striked a pose.
Now that it is suitable and possible, and when some of the different solutions are no more available/no time/, Haven reaches /again/ for the bigger club.

A little guilt, please. As in "crap, we should have at least thought about doing this or that", "how did we managed to put ourselves in that position", "wow, why are our people so hatefull, and why did we not do a thing about it" - that kind of thoughts and regrets. Not any actions, you see - just a litle guilt and some admitions.

n7axw wrote:Now I won't deny that there was plenty of hatred of Manticore going around. Two decades of war will tend to produce that result, justified or not. In fact it was on both sides. Elizabeth herself indulged in a lot of hatred of Haven for understanable reasons and at least in the business of the collapse of the Torch summit allowed that hatred and distrust to drive policy When she ordered the attack om Lovat.
Don

My point - to me it does matter a lot whether it is or isn't justified. Because I do not search for/want a different outcome. I need an admission of and guilt over mistakes made, in order to fully accept these characters as truly honest and honorable the way I feel they were meant to be.
Manticore and Manticorans were justified in their feelings. They have all the moral high ground anyone ever wanted or needed.
The Havenites were not - their hatred was created and installed in them by people with /if any at all/ the morals of ..well.. can't really find a comparison that will not offend the annimal. No one made an effort to reverse it - and what is worse, it became a player in its own right in Haven's political life. Which would have been marginally acceptable for me if it was justified - but it was not and couldn't be...

A little side branch. I still remember the first time I read "War of Honor". The moment Eloise approved Thunderbolt, I felt I had to say goodbye to all the Haven characters I had come to love and respect. I could not at the time accept any other fate for them - after what they had just done - no matter what the offence. I just could not. They were doomed to me. I don't know, maybe I wanted them to be too superhuman or something...
Imagine my surprise when The Master decided otherwise .
Well, I have changed a lot in the years after . I have come to understand and even accept his reasons and his morals. I even learned to share some of them. But still some things are missing for me.