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system cruiser

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Re: system cruiser
Post by SWM   » Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:49 pm

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Theemile wrote:My points on the above:

The Highlander has hammerheads and the Shrike does not; which, other than increased density due to few crew areas and maintenance spaces, is the reason for the shortened hull. A Shrike the length of a Highlander would be a completely different hull.

The LERM is a capacitor fed missile like the mk 15 ERM. Remember, the microfusion plant is smaller than 2 capacitor stacks, but larger than 1.

Good points. I hadn't thought about the fact that the Highlander had hammerheads. It does make a difference in hull form and impeller placement. I don't think offhand that it affects either Skimper's or my arguments; Skimper's notional design could be probably be done with either Highlander or Shrike hull form. But if he wants it to be a modification of the Highlander, then he means the Highlander hull form, and it's important to remember the differences. Thanks for pointing it out.
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Re: system cruiser
Post by Lord Skimper   » Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:58 am

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Highlander MB broadside mounts. Chase lasers upgraded the way the Shrike Graser is but kept a laser. The shrike does have armour. The upgraded Highlander would have less but would stay further away where possible.

In place of broadside laser mount one or two Roland quality PD and a Counter missile / viper on the broadside. 12 MB LERM are not really tubes and have no automation or ammunition. Only automation is the CM / Viper which uses what all ships use for CM designs, assuming Manty CM designs are the same or similar to everyone else. Chase would also mount one or two 282 PD.

Viper is CM size small don't confuse it with the larger LAC ship killer missiles of the Shrike or Ferret. Katana do not carry these missiles. LERM however have much more powerful laser heads and range.

Use older compensator similar to what is in the Shrike A or perhaps the 282. The fission pile maybe needed for the nodes and to keep endurance up. The Shrike and it's ilk are known for their cramped space. The 282 less so, the Highlander less again.

It is an LAC

It is made for picket duty originally and customs patrol this doesn't have to change. Except now it has LERM capabilities. And better systems.

Basically and updated Highlander / 282 with longer 15 M km range LERM mk36 missiles 12 or 24 if they fit.

Shrike may not have room for bunks but double it's size and remove its missiles and you easily have bunk room. Consumables and living space for longer stays.

80% level accelerations of 460+ G will be enough to out run any SL ship. Even at lower power levels allowing it to hide better. Beta Squared Nodes maybe not sure what the 282 used but it will need powerful enough side walls and bucklers.
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Re: system cruiser
Post by Lord Skimper   » Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:10 am

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If you do use the beta squared nodes the FTL option would exist. The Ghost rider drones fit in the Shrike, they will fit in something twice the size.

Remember LAC mass is not Ship mass.

The Highlander2 would have a ship mass less than 12,000 displacement tons. The Shrike B less than 5000 displacement tons.

Compared to a Wolfhound less than 10%. A Shrike is about 4%. Nothing HAC about it.
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Re: system cruiser
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:47 am

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Lord Skimper wrote:If you do use the beta squared nodes the FTL option would exist. The Ghost rider drones fit in the Shrike, they will fit in something twice the size.
Where have we seen a Shrike launch a Ghost Rider recon drone? :?:

Those things are more than twice the size of a 140ish ton capital ship missile and get floated out of a ship's boatbay.


I guess on the original shrike prototypes, with the cutter, you could have swapped the cutter for one or two recon drones - but we never saw that done. But after the redesign for extra survivability the Shrikes lost their cutter and wouldn't have any room for a ghost rider recon drone. (Now if their CLAC or fort launched the drone the Shrikes could talk to it; but that's different from being able to carry and launch it)
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Re: system cruiser
Post by Theemile   » Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:01 pm

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Lord Skimper wrote:
Remember LAC mass is not Ship mass.


What does this even mean? The reason a Shrike has a higher density than a normal ship is it has no internal maintenance areas and small crew areas

- translation -

almost zero void space.

virtuall every spaceship has maintenance access spaces because they are designed for self maintenance. There are engine rooms and access tunnels to allow maintenance crews to fix parts in the ships, as well as space for the crew to live for long periods of time. There are freezers for food and kitchens to cook in, rec desk to work out and swimming pools to swim. There are bunkrooms and offices, showers and workspaces. etc etc.

Shrikes are designed for 100% depot maintenance and crew housing. To allow long missions, there are probably 3-4 bunks for hot bunking, a coffee maker, a dorm style freezer and a microwave oven. There is no swimming pool, or rec deck. All the equipment is accessed from the outside of the ship in a depot, so there are few "engine room" spaces and access tunnels.

What happens when you do this? You increase the density of the ship and allow a smaller volume to mass more BECAUSE IT IS FILLED MORE WITH HARDWARE THAN AIR.
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Re: system cruiser
Post by SWM   » Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:12 pm

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Ghost Rider drones does not fit in the Shrike. No LACs (old or new) have ever carried Ghost Rider drones.

The Shrike does not have any armor, and neither does any other LAC. For that matter, neither does anything smaller than a destroyer, and what a destroyer has barely qualifies for the term armor.

Yes, the Highlander has it's missiles in box launchers, but those box launchers are internal, so they take up space inside the ship. The LERM is much bigger than the old missiles that were mounted on the Highlander.

The Highlander did not have enough room for any counter-missiles at all. So you are trying to squeeze in larger missiles, and add counter-missiles. You are squeezing out all the extra space the Highlander had inside, which is primarily crew access and crew quarters. You end up with crew space just as cramped as the Shrike.

If you don't use the fission generator, you have a much shorter endurance than a Shrike.

If you don't use the Beta-Squared nodes, your sidewalls aren't any stronger than the Highlander's, and I'm not sure you can generate a buckler sidewall.

And you still haven't explained why putting longer range missiles on this new design is preferable to using 4-stage Apollo system defense missile pods with Mycroft.
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Re: system cruiser
Post by Lord Skimper   » Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:27 pm

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House of steel page 334 " The aft hanger and cutter of the original Shrike were replaced.... A small hanger was retained for deployment of the current generation of Ghost Rider reconnaissance drones...". Big soft cover HoS.

Mass in tons in ships is a varied formula to describe the displacement of water of the ship. In water navies. In the Honour verse it was pegged at 0.25, with the shape of the ship and its hard to see dimensions such that to come up with the mass in tons is to take the external dimensions, add them together and divied by 4. This gives you a displacement size for the ship.

It isn't about how much it weights. A gold ship a concrete ship and a steel ship may all have the same displacement mass but would all weigh different amounts.

LAC are noted as not using the same formula as the other ships. A Highlander and a Highlander 2 may mass the same but the Highlander 2 weights much more. Although technically in micro gravity they don't weight anything. Not to be confused with mass of xxx KG. It is a measure of size. Otherwise a fully armoured BCL would mass much more than a larger CLAC.
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Re: system cruiser
Post by Lord Skimper   » Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:09 pm

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Ahh I did a second post but my WiFi connection stopped and I lost it.

Let's just say this.

The highlander displaces more is 2.5 times larger and empty space doesn't make something lighter. Air is heavy in space. This isn't an airship.

The Shrike would not weigh twice as much as the Highlander without armour. It would at most weigh the same amount. Likely less with its light weight fission pile and light weight beta squared nodes.

As for displacement vs weight. Displacement of water is a formula to determine a ships mass in tons of displacement. Not its weight.

Otherwise a BCL would mass more than a CLAC.
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Re: system cruiser
Post by Lord Skimper   » Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:43 pm

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Also a Highlander 2 would have a single first salvo heavier than a wolfhound. Given they would operate in sets or squadrons 4 or 8 they could blanket any attackers in LERM and still cost less and have less crew than a Wolfhound.

A prepared freighter every threeto six month is all the support ship it would need for months of on site support. Sooner is better but not needed.

Why not pods? Towing a pod is slow. No control for Apollo and pods last a month tops before they need to be retrieved and restarted. Three months onsite and your pod is dead. Your Shrike is out of consumables. The SL raiding force shows up and finds a LAC shiny new dead crew and a bunch of pods. They pick them up and scoot before any one knows they were there.

More mysterious than a Maylasian missing plane.
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Re: system cruiser
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:49 am

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Lord Skimper wrote:Ahh I did a second post but my WiFi connection stopped and I lost it.

Let's just say this.

The highlander displaces more is 2.5 times larger and empty space doesn't make something lighter. Air is heavy in space. This isn't an airship.

The Shrike would not weigh twice as much as the Highlander without armour. It would at most weigh the same amount. Likely less with its light weight fission pile and light weight beta squared nodes.
I thought Beta Squared nodes were heavier (and probably denser) than normal beta nodes. Their overall weight savings comes from having half as many of them. But that still makes for a denser drive package.

But in any case we have explicit text-ev of the lack of armor on a Shrike-B; so your deduction appears to be flawed.
Ashes of Victory wrote:Sidewall generators were too fragile and too valuable to expose to damage. Everyone knew they had to be put safely behind armor, where a freak hit would be less likely to destroy them and open a deadly chink in a warship's defenses. That meant they always went inside the hull, since the armor, by definition, was on the outside of the hull. But as Bolgeo, Paulk, and Roden pointed out, a LAC had no armor. There was no point in it, since no one could armor a ship that small to stand up against heavy weapons fire while still having the internal volume to carry a worthwhile weapons load of its own. So if there was no armor to put the generator behind in the first place, there was no logical requirement to put the generator inside the ship, either.
[Underline added for emphasis] This is when the crew of the Shrike-B Bad Penny was contemplating a field retrofit to add the stern-wall generation like the new Ferret-class LACs had.
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