Mending fences

kzt wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:Elizabeth has been taking more than a pound of flesh out of them.You will recall that in the books, since Erewhon was "only" in a DEFENSIVE treaty with Haven, they were not reqired to go to way with Manticore, so they "just" stayed out of the second part of the war.
What happened at the same time is that while Erewhon flagged ships were allowed to continue using the Junction their rates went through the roof. Massive rate increased and I would suspect, though I don't remember at this point, that there was all sorts of other costs and conditions. Taking away Most Favored status isn't even close. Erewhon had their cost of doing business rise in a very pointed and massive way. That the understand quite well

They cost Manticore several trillion in costs and over a million dead.

Wait a minute--you cannot blame Erewhon for Haven's attack on Manticore. Erewhon disapproved of Haven's actions. How are you pinning trillions of dollars and a million dead on Erewhon?

SWM wrote:Wait a minute--you cannot blame Erewhon for Haven's attack on Manticore. Erewhon disapproved of Haven's actions. How are you pinning trillions of dollars and a million dead on Erewhon?

You can probably make a case that Beatrice would not have been attempted without the technical upgrades that Haven got via Erewhon.

drothgery wrote:

SWM wrote:Wait a minute--you cannot blame Erewhon for Haven's attack on Manticore. Erewhon disapproved of Haven's actions. How are you pinning trillions of dollars and a million dead on Erewhon?

You can probably make a case that Beatrice would not have been attempted without the technical upgrades that Haven got via Erewhon.

Precisely.

drothgery wrote:

SWM wrote:Wait a minute--you cannot blame Erewhon for Haven's attack on Manticore. Erewhon disapproved of Haven's actions. How are you pinning trillions of dollars and a million dead on Erewhon?

You can probably make a case that Beatrice would not have been attempted without the technical upgrades that Haven got via Erewhon.

You could also make a case for the fact that at that moment in time, Haven had no other option. The only other option would have been surrender, but that would have been a non-starter in Haven. As for technical upgrades, most of those came from the results of Bolthole's own research, not from the Erewnonese. After all, Shannon was still digesting the information she received from them. There was not enough time for her to develop new weapons based on that and refit the fleet with them. The treaty between Haven and Erewhon was signed just before the resumption of hostilities. All the information did was underscore the differences in tech development and show Haven that they were in trouble.

If you give weapon technical data to my enemy as part of a mutual defense treaty I think I have the right to attempt to get my enemy to dedicate limited resources to defending and rebuilding their allies infrastructure after I pay you a visit and destroy everything in your system. Pointing out that poor choices can be costly is kind of useful for deterring future poor choices.

kzt wrote:If you give weapon technical data to my enemy as part of a mutual defense treaty I think I have the right to attempt to get my enemy to dedicate limited resources to defending and rebuilding their allies infrastructure after I pay you a visit and destroy everything in your system. Pointing out that poor choices can be costly is kind of useful for deterring future poor choices.

So, let me get this straight. You are going to punish a government for choosing what is in the best interest of their nation after your nation spent years ignoring treaty obligations your government made. In other words, you are going to punish them for your mistakes. Yes, that makes sense.....kind of.......sort of.....not so much.

Becoming neutral is all well and good. Signing up with someone I'm at war with and then providing them with technical data I provided you is not ok.

Mexico might well have had really serious issue with the US, but if they had signed up with the Axis in on June 1, 1941 I think they would have been made to regret it long before August 1945.

kzt wrote:Becoming neutral is all well and good. Signing up with someone I'm at war with and then providing them with technical data I provided you is not ok.

Mexico might well have had really serious issue with the US, but if they had signed up with the Axis in on June 1, 1941 I think they would have been made to regret it long before August 1945.

When Erewhon and Haven signed their treaty, there were peace talks in progress. That did not break down until after the treaty was in place. Your government was the one that was dragging it's heels on finalizing a deal for years. At the same time, it was ignoring almost all of it's treaty obligations to other parties, not just Erewhon. Your government's errors, not the Erewhonese led to the situation Erewhon found itself in. They redressed it as best they could. The fact that they did stay neutral in the second round of fighting only underscores the fact that they were upset with the entire situation on both sides, since they figured that a reasonable government would finalize a peace treaty. Their treaty with Haven was based on that premise. The fact that Manticore did not end the war was a surprise to them. So, once again, I would ask you, are you going to punish someone else for your errors?

KNick wrote:

kzt wrote:Becoming neutral is all well and good. Signing up with someone I'm at war with and then providing them with technical data I provided you is not ok.

Mexico might well have had really serious issue with the US, but if they had signed up with the Axis in on June 1, 1941 I think they would have been made to regret it long before August 1945.

When Erewhon and Haven signed their treaty, there were peace talks in progress. That did not break down until after the treaty was in place. Your government was the one that was dragging it's heels on finalizing a deal for years. At the same time, it was ignoring almost all of it's treaty obligations to other parties, not just Erewhon. Your government's errors, not the Erewhonese led to the situation Erewhon found itself in. They redressed it as best they could. The fact that they did stay neutral in the second round of fighting only underscores the fact that they were upset with the entire situation on both sides, since they figured that a reasonable government would finalize a peace treaty. Their treaty with Haven was based on that premise. The fact that Manticore did not end the war was a surprise to them. So, once again, I would ask you, are you going to punish someone else for your errors?

Amen Brother, Preach on about the Evils the High Ridge Government. They are the real reason that millions died.

Browne wrote:Amen Brother, Preach on about the Evils the High Ridge Government. They are the real reason that millions died.

No, they are not. The single most responsible person is (the late) Arnold Giancolla; if he had not manipulated the diplomatic correspondence to deliberately escalate the conflict, the war would never have restarted.

If the Pritchart government had shown any appreciation of Manticoran domestic politics at all, they would never have restarted the war when it was clear Manticore under the Conservative/Liberal/Progressive coalition would not resume the war by choice under any circumstances. Dragging on negotiations still longer might have hurt them a bit in the polls, but Haven is a presidential system, not a parliamentary one; there's no way for the opposition to force an unscheduled election.

No one likes the High Ridge government. And neglecting to conclude a formal peace treaty for pure domestic political concerns was clearly foolish. But it's boggling that operators as shrewd as Kevin Usher has been shown to be in other contexts weren't completely aware of what they were doing and why.