Training Ships

After ground training and after all the simulators what can help particularly in backwater / Silesian Protectorates - Talbot Cluster systems.

Trojan which are not particularly good against military ships, make excellent training ships. As trainers they can carry a variety of weapons and counter weapons, while with out armour can be refitted without the problems of other ships.

Fast Freighters and Fast Transports also can be made into Trojan like training ships with the latest technologies. Latest Grasers and Lasers, Mk36, Mk16, tubes and Mk16 and Mk23 Pods. Add Apollo control and keyhole 1 & 2 one of each. LAC bays for Shrike Ferret and Katana. Might getaway with fake / thermacrete armour on the BCL SD sections.

This gives a big ship with limited say 50 of each pods, and 6 of each LAC. Simulators, command decks, training facilities and fore Hammerhead with Roland 6 pack Mk16 tubes. A pair of each size of Graser and Laser for each broadside, or perhaps concentrated on the SD broadside.

A ship that carries a larger crew with quarters for the various other ships. Weapons for each other class, bottles of each size and engineering rooms, associated rooms & command decks for each ship type.

Compensators for fast speed, mil spec wedges, sidewalls and bucklers.

Everything for training on the other ships with quarters and decks setup for those ships. A Wolfhound Avalon deck with LERM tubes. A Sag. C and Nike Deck, with Mk16 tubes. With Keyhole 1. Not many munitions on board but enough. CLAC LAC bays 18 of them. Everything a bay on a CLAC will have.
The other broadside will have the Keyhole2 and SD energy mounts. With the aft abilities to launch pods arrange and control them.

A mobile set of ships that let training on ship with each ship represented. Also allows cross training without changing ships. All in one place. Quarters for all and something that with a couple other of the same ships can operate in systems without advanced training space based operations.

One could even have Cataphract tubes and pods. Simulate an attack and defense with a number of different ship types. With modular sections training ships can be configured to meet specific ship training needs.

While one wouldn't want to enter combat, these ships could defend themselves if attacked. Only if need be.

Sure, as soon as they can build any of this it might be possible. But how about we train people on the ships they will actually serve on? You know, that whole "working up" thing?

kzt wrote:Sure, as soon as they can build any of this it might be possible. But how about we train people on the ships they will actually serve on? You know, that whole "working up" thing?

Yep. Train people to work on what they'll actually be working on. The same reason modern auto technician courses barely touches on carburettor theory, never mind actually touching one.

There is very little point in teaching people to fix carbs when they were phased out nearly 20 years ago and when 50% of the cars sold today in Europe are diesels with a high pressure common rail. In fact, someone who knew everything about carbs would probably kill himself if he tried to take apart a CRD without knowing to de-pressurise it first.

The Trojans may be closer to current gen technology than even a Gryphon, but remember the class started life as a real freighter(not a Q-ship). It wasn't a particularly new class of freighter either.

So, with NO capasity to build modern warships or any of the equipment and weapons or other things because the orbital infrastructure for Mantiocre is not yet replaced, you want to build specail training ships?

How is the better than what has been described already in the books of assigning people out of their basic training and schools to active duty ships? If you need a seperate stage of training and development, there are older ships in the Fleet which may not be usable for front line work but that would serve as good training situations for new people in the basics of of all the systems while still performing usefull functions on active duty.

Sorry, but I don't see the logic in designing and building a totally new type of ship which essentialy a bastardized hybrid of all the weapons systems and other shipboard systems across all the existing classes just to train people. Bring them up through the relevent basic technical training and then send them out in apprenitce capacity on real ships. You used Wanderer as an example as a "training ship". That was assigning new people to a real actived duty ship in it's working up and deployment.

Brigade XO wrote:So, with NO capasity to build modern warships or any of the equipment and weapons or other things because the orbital infrastructure for Mantiocre is not yet replaced, you want to build specail training ships?

DW has told us repeatedly that the mindset of BuShips is to avoid building overly-specialized ships.

There are some notable exceptions to this general rule, such as dispatch boats, repair ships, etc. but with the exception of the DBs they're rarely tasked with solo missions, but instead operate as part of a larger task force (and its accompanying fleet train) which has far more flexibility in the missions it can accomplish as a task force.

Each of these exceptions can be justified because the trade-off is worth it: being able to use the same crew that is required for a DD to operate five DBs allows messages to be sent to five times as many places at once, or allows five times as many places to have the ability to quickly get a message sent to a nearby nodal base.

The repair ships that might be sent in the fleet train allow severely damaged ships to receive repairs that would otherwise be impossible away from the yards.

CLACs are another specialist type that has cleared the bar to justify their existence because of their ability to carry the screening element for a large task force at with a dramatic reduction in the number of hyper generators and alpha nodes, as well as the personnel to operate and maintain them, making a typical RMN/GSN CLAC and its wing collectively able to provide the same missile defense as a half dozen squadrons of DDs.

A "training ship" does not do a single thing that a regular ship doesn't already do, and unless it's equipped with all the systems of a regular ship (which makes it one) there are many things a regular ship can do that a training ship can't. Therefore, there is no point in building them.

The only thing remotely like a "training ship" that makes sense is a simulator, which can do one very important thing that a normal ship can't: It can be completely "destroyed" due to the incompetence or misfortune of its crew, and it and they are ready to fight again as soon as the system is re-initialized for the next exercise. The Admiralty vastly prefers that to losing the investment in ships and personnel of letting those things happen for real. That's why they are built, and "training ships" are not. (It's also why every real ship big enough to carry an AuxCon apparently can and does operate it as a simulator.)

In addition to the other objections, it will be a couple years yet before Talbott produces any significant number of people out of the ground-based training facilities to need space-based training. By that time, Manticore will be producing plenty of new warships that they can serve on. There is no need for training ships--Manticore can continue their long practice of putting people fresh out of training into real warships to finish off their training.

It should be remembered that we have seen way more than a dozen examples in the books where a chapter starts off in the middle of an engagement only to have it end with the wrap-up of a training sumulation on an active duty ship and everyone goes off to a debrief and other evaluations of what happened and why.

I does not help that RMN (and Grayson) lost whatever training facilities and simulators they had on the space stations and other structures lost in Oyster Bay. However, we should assume that everything from a DD to an SD. Probably many of the auxiliary ships do as well for more than dealing with only the operations of those specific ships. Certainly would be a good way to continue drill and training for crews of DBs as well.

A training ship is not outrageous, Skimper, but given the lack of SEM facilities and the need to build warships at Bolthole, it is not practical, I am afraid.

I see training in Talbott (and elsewhere for that matter) to be at three levels: Basic, Advanced Individual Training (AIT), and Deployment--Basic is just that, aquainting folks with limited (or no) space background with being on a warship ("This is a Fusion Room. DO NOT PRESS THE RED BUTTON!!) and General military bearing. AIT takes the recruits from basic and trains them for a particular skill--it may take 8-12 weeks for a supply clerk, 3-4 years for a fusion room tech--with lots and lots of Simulator training--not just for battle and tactics, but repair and handling of equipment that on occassion can go BOOM!. Then they are parcelled out to ships in which their REAL training--by techs and senior Petty Officers that have been around for 30 years or more.

If you can't tell, I work (civilian only) for the US Army, which uses something similar for it's training, and also uses a lot of simulation in it's technical training (better than having a beginning class take apart a $30M Helicopter and try to put it back together.....

Other thoughts on crew training would be appreciated. I didn't mention offciers, as they would have a very different path.

As for who and how one was thinking of using a civilian contractor with the right clearance and military oversight.

Built where? I would suggest Silesia or Talbot Cluster civilian yards. Using modular systems, Fast Transports Fast Freighters and Trojans.

In Silesia a form of voluntary service fast tracks one in SEM membership normally one might say five years of service, but with prolong this might be 15 years? Complete a 5-15 year term and regardless of what your home system does you become a full citizen of the SEM. Create a home world reserve start with training ships then move up to commerce escorts and finally full military deployment.

14 Trojans as is to start with. Then build new military compensated wedged and sidewalled ships. Light armour perhaps layers of simple thermacrete with a thin layered shell. (WWII battleship and pocket battleship armour was filled with concrete). Concrete floats steel doesn't. Rely upon the energy solution much like the Homer class BC. Yes it did have armour just not a whole lot.

14 Trojans would then go into a local refit for advanced compensators, sidewalls wedges bucklers etc... Even fit Keyhole 1 or 2. Pods are not a problem and as more of these get built in Silesia the ships otherwise stationed there can be moved into other locales. Make a System Guard. Semi civilian, military reserve.

Upgrade carried LAC to Shrike Ferret Katana and Highlander 2. 4 of each no problem and handy to train and use. Pods 50 Mk16 and 50 Mk23. Plus a nose of Roland Mk16 and broadside of 6 LERM or LERM DDM. Viper CM PD and Lasers and Grasers. LAC and Pod mix is also not a problem as the armour is taken out of the equation. It makes a great training ship and a System Guard ship all in one. 5 year term and with more crew than automation requires it has lots of graduation crew ready able and fully trained to step onto a new, modern ship.

Plus as these would be training ships like the Trojan they can test out new advances. A 5 year burn in of new tech solving problems and churning out top of the line ensigns, junior personnel, and junior officers. No need to bring green midshipmen or non com's on board your shiny new Naval ship.

Different but that's the point. Plus new ships don't have space for traditional green ensigns anymore. A SD(P) might be able to absorb a 100 green newbies. A Roland what 2-4? LAC 1 maybe? Much better to just get 30 fully trained for a Roland and full LAC complements.

The Ships can be produced in Silesia, in Silesian Slips on a Civilian basis using maybe some Lord / Admiral who has a transportation company operating with local contacts and civilian relatives already setup. Expanding to the Talbot Cluster and Verge-Fringe worlds that need taming / training and incorporation into the SEM. Bringing Manty trade and employing currently under employed Manty Mercantile ships.

Best of all, besides trainers in the full Manty Naval way. This doesn't cost anything as the new trade routes will help fund the whole process. And employ a great many otherwise idle ships. Both as trainers and cargo people haulers. Especially with new systems opening up.

Jesus Christ Skimper, have you not realized yet that Q-Ships aren't going to happen?