whole star nation from scratch fleet question

saber964 wrote:

arduskaine wrote:I'm creating a game for some friends of mine who play the ad astra saganami tactical simulator. I'm creating a whole star nation from scratch.

I'm designing them with their own navy (low-mid sized, nothing bigger than a heavy cruiser and mostly light cruisers and destroyers). Where I'm hitting a wall is with auxiliries.
In a single system star nation, where they have space station support, planetary industry etc, whould a navy still need a force of space-based auxiliaries (ammunition ships, repair ships, fuel ships, tenders etc)?
Looking at the real world navies - most have auxiliary supports, but these range from something like two offshore tenders to small fleets of support ships.

Any thoughts from my wiser honorverse fans out their would be of great help. Thanks

I would recommend buying axillaries like a AD (Depot Ship) and an AR (Repair Ship).

A Depot ship is used for minor repair work, refit and maintenance work beyond shipboard capabilities but not requiring the use of a shipyard.

A Repair ship is good for ship repair up to medium damage and ad hoc repairs for heavy damage to return damaged ship to a proper shipyard (read OBS on Fearless' return and Hexapuma and Warlock's return in SftS)

Either auxiliary type wouldn't be of great use to a Navy not interested in sustained operations far from its bases of support, where they clearly would have shipyards and other facilities necessary for that sort of thing.

For example, Grayson and Masada were close enough to each other that they didn't need auxiliaries. Somewhere like Monica, with a propensity for mercenary operations elsewhere, might have a few.

There's also a huge difference between the auxiliaries required to support multiple superdreadnoughts, any one of which individually masses more than most cruiser-level navies and those auxiliaries supporting that small amount of cruisers. A 6MT SD masses forty 150KT cruisers, after all!

saber964 wrote:I would recommend buying axillaries like a AD (Depot Ship) and an AR (Repair Ship).

A Depot ship is used for minor repair work, refit and maintenance work beyond shipboard capabilities but not requiring the use of a shipyard.

A Repair ship is good for ship repair up to medium damage and ad hoc repairs for heavy damage to return damaged ship to a proper shipyard (read OBS on Fearless' return and Hexapuma and Warlock's return in SftS)

I would concur here, any nation fielding hyper capable ships are still going to want repair & recovery ships. even if its a SDF it's still going to send ships out on "diplomatic" missions. also the navy high command will want at least some supply and support capability for extra territory operation (Modern example - Algeria & Libya both have amphib. ships - like they would ever use them). Even with a "SDF", not having the capability of at least limited projection paints a bull's-eye on your back (if we attack them - what are they going to do? Shake there fist at us?)

MAD-4A wrote:

saber964 wrote:I would recommend buying axillaries like a AD (Depot Ship) and an AR (Repair Ship).

A Depot ship is used for minor repair work, refit and maintenance work beyond shipboard capabilities but not requiring the use of a shipyard.

A Repair ship is good for ship repair up to medium damage and ad hoc repairs for heavy damage to return damaged ship to a proper shipyard (read OBS on Fearless' return and Hexapuma and Warlock's return in SftS)

I would concur here, any nation fielding hyper capable ships are still going to want repair & recovery ships. even if its a SDF it's still going to send ships out on "diplomatic" missions. also the navy high command will want at least some supply and support capability for extra territory operation (Modern example - Algeria & Libya both have amphib. ships - like they would ever use them). Even with a "SDF", not having the capability of at least limited projection paints a bull's-eye on your back (if we attack them - what are they going to do? Shake there fist at us?)

But the smaller/less active the navy, the more the tendency to have "multipurpose" units like those 'phibs. And an idle SDF might have a smallish freighter it uses as a collier/tender - a few repair resources, parts, fuel, ammo and supplies, all in one hull - turning a fleet train into a fleet "boxcar".

Theemile wrote:But the smaller/less active the navy, the more the tendency to have "multipurpose" units like those 'phibs. And an idle SDF might have a smallish freighter it uses as a collier/tender - a few repair resources, parts, fuel, ammo and supplies, all in one hull - turning a fleet train into a fleet "boxcar".

Well of-course they'll take what they can afford. But it's likely if the can get one cheap, they'll take an old 2nd (or 3rd) hand from someone else (obsolete SLN or Manty missile coiler or Haven supply ship) - like the way that one old coiler was being used as a armed civilian transport. If a civi (ex capitan) can afford one, then a system that can afford a cruiser can. Those ampibs were old Russian coldwar models.

MAD-4A wrote:

Theemile wrote:But the smaller/less active the navy, the more the tendency to have "multipurpose" units like those 'phibs. And an idle SDF might have a smallish freighter it uses as a collier/tender - a few repair resources, parts, fuel, ammo and supplies, all in one hull - turning a fleet train into a fleet "boxcar".

Well of-course they'll take what they can afford. But it's likely if the can get one cheap, they'll take an old 2nd (or 3rd) hand from someone else (obsolete SLN or Manty missile coiler or Haven supply ship) - like the way that one old coiler was being used as a armed civilian transport. If a civi (ex capitan) can afford one, then a system that can afford a cruiser can. Those ampibs were old Russian coldwar models.

Oh, you're quite right. But don't forget - what is moderately expensive for indivuals in one culture is obscenely expensive for governments in another. Grayson Pre-1904 couldn't afford military castoffs from Manticore or any other 1st rate powers- their acquision of 2 out of date Solarian autocannon was touted as the reason one of their Cruisers survived 1st & 2nd Yeltsin & 1st Blackbird. Even the gifted 75 year old, obsolete Manty ships which were given to rebuild the GSN were major upgrades - and Grayson couldn't have afforded one of them - yet at the same time, Bachfinch was arming his merchant cruiser.

Even today we see this inequality - I live in the Middle US - My wife and I have a mid sized suburban home and 3 cars, my income allows us to live comfortably, but not indecently well by US standards. That same income would make me indecently rich in vast areas of south America and Africa, and most Villages there are lucky to have 3 cars amongst their populations which number in the 100s.

At the same time, I couldn't afford to live comfortably in New York or LA on my current salary. That nice suburban home would be replaced by a run down, 800 square foot appartment, and I'd be lucky to still have 1 of said cars.

Everything is relative to the economy of the system in question.

Theemile wrote:…Everything is relative to the economy of the system in question.

Yes I’m aware of economic inequalities. But we’ve also specified a star nation who is affording to build a fleet, so they wouldn’t be the space = of say Somalia. More like Egypt or Chile at least, I would think. The “ABC” countries where never very rich, yet managed to afford a fairly recognizable navy prior to WWII ranging from Ironclads on up to (well a few) dreadnoughts each. Chile had 2 on order from Britain in 1914. These were seized by the English when hostilities broke out. 1 becoming HMS Canada the other converted to a carrier, but HMS Canada was eventually sent to Chile after the war. Argentina went on to purchase USS Phoenix (a Large CL – CA hull with lots of 6” guns instead of 8”) in the 50's. This became General Belgrano which was lost in the Falklands, when it threaten the British carrier group (well done HMS Conqueror – they did they're duty). Anyway, if they are well off enough to afford cruisers, they should be able to find at least a 3rd rate support ship on the cheap (even if it's saved from the breakers & on its last leg (until a better one can be afforded) having 1 to show around makes potential enemy’s think you have the capability – much of a navy ships service is never seen it's just the threat of its possible use). Also having one in hand will come in handy later, when you want to replace it with a more serviceable ship – easier to get funding to upgrade what you already have then to obtain something you’re getting along without. (Like the M-2 Bradly – they wanted to green-light the piece of crap the prototype was so they could get it in the field. Then ask for budgets later to upgrade and modify them to serviceable standards.)

May I inquire about the time, tech level, industrial level and especially the solar system's shape?

Because, if you have nodes close to transition border, then you will need a bigger percentage of your escort hulls hyper capable. Same goes for a decent sized merchant marine.

Local GDP and quirks also an important factor; ie how big is the budget.

Then comes the TL and Diplomacy aspects, What can you import and what do you have to build locally?

Depending on the strategic and tactical nuances, I wouldn't go for a DD based navy at all. I know it is always a battle between political showmanship and actual usability but in the "Havenite Sector Wars" period I would rather get a few second hand medium or jumbo freighters (hulls, to be precise) and use those as LAC bases; with the majority of my System Defense Force consisting of old style LACs and/or Corvettes.

Cronicler wrote:Then comes the TL and Diplomacy aspects, What can you import and what do you have to build locally?

If you can't build the ships locally you are probably not going to not get specialized ships. You are going to either get 2nd hand ships from the SLN or maybe warships from a commercial military builder, of which I suspect there is a pretty limited number that work with people who don't have formal treaties with their government.

Cronicler wrote:Depending on the strategic and tactical nuances, I wouldn't go for a DD based navy at all. I know it is always a battle between political showmanship and actual usability but in the "Havenite Sector Wars" period I would rather get a few second hand medium or jumbo freighters (hulls, to be precise) and use those as LAC bases; with the majority of my System Defense Force consisting of old style LACs and/or Corvettes.

With this plan, unless you have Manticore level tech, you wind up with all of the cost of a real navy with none of the deterrent or survivability. This would be fine for a member of the SL, or somebody who is protected by a much larger navy, but an independent system needs at least some hyper capable hulls to be able to counterattack an aggressor.