(SPOILERS) Possible surprises that RFC might spring

n7axw wrote:Here are mine:

Revolution in Temple Lands fermented by Aivah's organization which as Rayno put it "has a very long reach."

Aivah turns out to be a double agent in Clyntahn's employ.

Nimue turns coat, becoming an adversary rather than ally.

The last two here sound EXTREMELY unlikely... but that is their surprise potential!

What are yours?

Equally likely, Aivah is an agent of Rayno, plotting with Rayno and DuChairne to wipe out Clyntahn and the rest of the gang of four, except for Duchairn, assassinate the Grand Vicar, and install Rayno as Grand Vicar. The new leadership of the COGA will quickly make peace with the EOC and together they will unite Safehold, accellerate the tech, colonize nearby human habitable worlds, build a space navy and defeat the gbaba.

Or slightly less likely,

Clyntahn, has a copy of the key of Schuler. After a few more military defeats and the loss of the war an increasing possibility Clyntahn goes into the secret room under the temple and inserts the key of schuler in the control room console. The stored AI Schuler appears, which Clyntahn believes to actually be an arcangel. The AI schuler speaks sharply to Clyntahn about Clyntahn's wicked ways. Clyntahn undergoes an epiphany, is sincerely penitent. Then, after a brief stint in rehab under Shulers guidance, gives up drinking and whoring. Clyntahn then declares the Grand Vicar an apostate, replaces him, becomes Grand Vicar, ends the jihad. Makes peace with the EOC, etc, same continuation as Aivah/Rayno above.

Either of these two quite plausible scenarios would quickly and neatly end the grim, gruesome struggle on Safehold and get on with the really important task of dealing with the gbaba.

The only thing that might make either of these quite plausible scenarios or an equally quite plausible scenario not happen is the fact David Weber is a sadistic, greedy bastard who revels in the most gruesome details of religious war and developing nasty weapons to kill people and wishes to prolong the agony of his readers while giving them horrible nightmares. Not to mention swelling his already overflowing coffers by playing this story out for at least another 5 or 6 books ending with a brief epilogue something like, by the way after victory on Safehold they built a space navy and exterminted the gbaba. But only after extracting every last possible penny from the bank accounts of his fan base through movies, games, toys, spinoff series etc.

Curse you David Weber.

OTOH, perhaps David is writing this Safehold series as a service to humanity, a cautionary tale forecasting the horrors of the imminent global war between Christians/Jews/Secular Humanists and Fanatics who call themselves Muslims on this planet. Any profits are purely coincidental and will be used to help his family and worthwhile charitable causes. Perhaps even some thick-headed politicians and religious fanatics will be persuaded to alter their suicidal course. Better yet, enough of the good people who usually stand by and do nothing until it is too late while evil almost triumphs, will be mobilized to prevent this global tragedy so that it never happens. A read of the brief descriptions of the final war in Honor Harrington, and the global religious war on Safehold, should provide enough examples to awaken even a dull intellect as to the possible downsides of the current geopolitical situation on Earth.

Bless you Saint David.

OYAH (On Yet Another Hand), yeh thats right I'm a stiltie on mekoha, perhaps it is just a really good story. Sometimes a novel is just a novel.

Bravo, Sharp Claw, bravo!

Don

Sharp Claw wrote:

n7axw wrote:Here are mine:

Revolution in Temple Lands fermented by Aivah's organization which as Rayno put it "has a very long reach."

Aivah turns out to be a double agent in Clyntahn's employ.

Nimue turns coat, becoming an adversary rather than ally.

The last two here sound EXTREMELY unlikely... but that is their surprise potential!

What are yours?

Equally likely, Aivah is an agent of Rayno, plotting with Rayno and DuChairne to wipe out Clyntahn and the rest of the gang of four, except for Duchairn, assassinate the Grand Vicar, and install Rayno as Grand Vicar. The new leadership of the COGA will quickly make peace with the EOC and together they will unite Safehold, accellerate the tech, colonize nearby human habitable worlds, build a space navy and defeat the gbaba.

Or slightly less likely,

Clyntahn, has a copy of the key of Schuler. After a few more military defeats and the loss of the war an increasing possibility Clyntahn goes into the secret room under the temple and inserts the key of schuler in the control room console. The stored AI Schuler appears, which Clyntahn believes to actually be an arcangel. The AI schuler speaks sharply to Clyntahn about Clyntahn's wicked ways. Clyntahn undergoes an epiphany, is sincerely penitent. Then, after a brief stint in rehab under Shulers guidance, gives up drinking and whoring. Clyntahn then declares the Grand Vicar an apostate, replaces him, becomes Grand Vicar, ends the jihad. Makes peace with the EOC, etc, same continuation as Aivah/Rayno above.

Either of these two quite plausible scenarios would quickly and neatly end the grim, gruesome struggle on Safehold and get on with the really important task of dealing with the gbaba.

The only thing that might make either of these quite plausible scenarios or an equally quite plausible scenario not happen is the fact David Weber is a sadistic, greedy bastard who revels in the most gruesome details of religious war and developing nasty weapons to kill people and wishes to prolong the agony of his readers while giving them horrible nightmares. Not to mention swelling his already overflowing coffers by playing this story out for at least another 5 or 6 books ending with a brief epilogue something like, by the way after victory on Safehold they built a space navy and exterminted the gbaba. But only after extracting every last possible penny from the bank accounts of his fan base through movies, games, toys, spinoff series etc.

Curse you David Weber.

OTOH, perhaps David is writing this Safehold series as a service to humanity, a cautionary tale forecasting the horrors of the imminent global war between Christians/Jews/Secular Humanists and Fanatics who call themselves Muslims on this planet. Any profits are purely coincidental and will be used to help his family and worthwhile charitable causes. Perhaps even some thick-headed politicians and religious fanatics will be persuaded to alter their suicidal course. Better yet, enough of the good people who usually stand by and do nothing until it is too late while evil almost triumphs, will be mobilized to prevent this global tragedy so that it never happens. A read of the brief descriptions of the final war in Honor Harrington, and the global religious war on Safehold, should provide enough examples to awaken even a dull intellect as to the possible downsides of the current geopolitical situation on Earth.

Bless you Saint David.

OYAH (On Yet Another Hand), yeh thats right I'm a stiltie on mekoha, perhaps it is just a really good story. Sometimes a novel is just a novel.

Sharp Claw, you failed to note the context of equality between the sexes strong in both the Honorverse and to lesser degree the Safehold books but, otherwise spot on.

David writes a good book while educating his audience (Star Trek began this trend of using popular entertainment to educate the audience in the US but, cautionary tales are as old as written history.) As to the other he makes his living by writing while reading his books is our hobby writing them is his bread and butter.

As to teasing us fans well, we twist RFC's tail right back, too

Poker.

pokermind wrote:Sharp Claw, you failed to note the context of equality between the sexes strong in both the Honorverse and to lesser degree the Safehold books but, otherwise spot on.

David writes a good book while educating his audience (Star Trek began this trend of using popular entertainment to educate the audience in the US but, cautionary tales are as old as written history.) As to the other he makes his living by writing while reading his books is our hobby writing them is his bread and butter.

As to teasing us fans well, we twist RFC's tail right back, too

Poker.

Thank you, n7axw , great topic starter.

Pokermind,

Sharp points, as usual. I failed to note in that post but have not failed to notice, other David Weber themes such as gender equality or sexual tolerance in a religious context, as well as his many examples of true religion vs. bigotry and fanaticism and the responsibilities, good uses and misuses of wealth and power. But these are ideas for other topics.

Although there was a thick fog of satire in my post as well as a mighty attempt at twisting the tigers tail, let me clarify by saying, I really don't begrudge David his success and am not really a utopian socialist that thinks anyone who makes a profit is evil and successful individuals can only redeem themselves by giving it all away to charity. Hopefully some of David's enlightened social ideals become more of a reality in our lifetimes.

I am quite happy to spend a significant portion of my entertainment dollars both on electronic and printed versions of his books and hope the great writing continues for some time. Looking forward to the movie and any spinoffs that expand the audience for David Weber as well.

Now, back to trying to guess some actual plot twists in future Safehold novels. The LAMA ending conversation as well as the all too brief snippet is a fascinating glimpse of the beginning of the next book. I have been waiting for some time for Aivah or <current alias> to be brought into the inner circle and play a more significant role as she is one of my favorite characters. I am glad that looks like it is finally about to happen. I don't know if Aivah is going to fetch something or someone vital from Zion or take something or herself there. She may already know the schedule as she knows her trip won't happen right away or be awaiting some signal from her network. She may already have set a process in motion that is awaiting a report from Zion about its success or failure. In any case, she must be pretty sure of her ability to persuade Merlin to help her and that he can do what she asks of him. Her plot depends on him getting her to Zion and back in a single day.

How about finding out that Nimue never got off the ship and is Aivah's umpteen-great-grandmother?

Or maybe it turns out that Nimue doesn't remember volunteering for her mission because she didn't, and it turns out that for all his flaws, Clynton is actually "on the side of the angels". (Sorry, I was going to say working for the good guys, but this entertained me more)

Of course, Clyntahn is "on the side of the Angels". In his own nasty way, he's trying to protect Langhorne's plan for Safehold which David Weber has commented plenty of times as being "not a good thing".

As for Nimue reaching Safehold, the evidence is against it. The last we saw of the original Nimue she was not part of the Project Ark terraforming fleet but was part of the Project Ark decoy fleet.

tourist wrote:How about finding out that Nimue never got off the ship and is Aivah's umpteen-great-grandmother?

Or maybe it turns out that Nimue doesn't remember volunteering for her mission because she didn't, and it turns out that for all his flaws, Clynton is actually "on the side of the angels". (Sorry, I was going to say working for the good guys, but this entertained me more)

Sharp Claw wrote:Equally likely, Aivah is an agent of Rayno, plotting with Rayno and DuChairne to wipe out Clyntahn and the rest of the gang of four, except for Duchairn, assassinate the Grand Vicar, and install Rayno as Grand Vicar. The new leadership of the COGA will quickly make peace with the EOC and together they will unite Safehold, accellerate the tech, colonize nearby human habitable worlds, build a space navy and defeat the gbaba.

Everyone is placing Aivah in either the EOC/ROS camp or the CoGA camp. I think that's wrong. She is in her own camp, in fact she is leading her own camp.

I think at one time or another, she has indicated in her thoughts how much she hates the CoGA for what it has become, and was allied with the Wynstons. She also sent a very large amount of blackmail data to Charis.

But that does NOT make her on the Charisian side. It places her firmly against the corrupt forces in the Church, but she is still religious. She may well be concerned that Merlin is a demon, after all. I can see scenarios where she want to take out both the present hierarchy in the CoGA and the Shan-Wei worshipping folks on the other side.

I don't know how she would play that, although getting Merlin to Zion could be a plot on her part. For that matter, do you think the mention of facial recognition of people entering and leaving the Temple by Nahrmahn and OWL could be another "rifle over the fireplace"?

Could you imagine Cayleb discovering that Merlin was taken to the Temple (no idea how), and with Mychail and Nimue to help, recruiting a bunch of Marines to grab the advanced assault rifles and attack the Temple on the assault shuttle?

Just trying to think outside the box, because I don't even know how many dimensions DW's box has!

-- Bob G

robertamgottlieb wrote:<<SNIP>>
Just trying to think outside the box, because I don't even know how many dimensions DW's box has!

-- Bob G

If you can think outside David's box, you should be writing SF for a living, too.

Hi RobertaMGottlieb,

Minor nit: its Wylsynn's not Wynston's.

Nor do I think she's trying to trap Merlin in the temple, since he can call for help sub vocally anytime he wants. let alone a direct hit by artillery wouldn't kill him.

You're quite right Aivah/Nynian is pretty much her own agent of reform, as indicated by her assassinations of 9 vicars.

It's rather hard to figure who in the temple she would turn him over to, if she were so inclined, given how she despises Clyntahn and so many others.

While Hauwerd gave Rhobair a secret letter, we have indication it mentioned Nynian (or anyone else for that matter) and no indication anything Rhobair has discussed in the temple has ever turned up in her intelligence reports, so the odds are that they are continuing to operate separately rather than jointly.

Controlling her agents during Rhobair's coup attempt could be critical, if there is indeed some distant contact between their two groups (nothing written etc), or perhaps Rhobair wants some proof only she can provide.

Meeting Merlin could help cement the deal, don't you think?

OTOH, the concept of an assault shuttle raid with exactly who chosen to to be the marines (!) on board is something we don't have to worry about, being a bit way beyond the rational barriers of RFC's plot box here.

Granted it has more than the 4 dimensions we know of.

L

robertamgottlieb wrote:

Sharp Claw wrote:Equally likely, Aivah is an agent of Rayno, plotting with Rayno and DuChairne to wipe out Clyntahn and the rest of the gang of four, except for Duchairn, assassinate the Grand Vicar, and install Rayno as Grand Vicar. The new leadership of the COGA will quickly make peace with the EOC and together they will unite Safehold, accellerate the tech, colonize nearby human habitable worlds, build a space navy and defeat the gbaba.

Everyone is placing Aivah in either the EOC/ROS camp or the CoGA camp. I think that's wrong. She is in her own camp, in fact she is leading her own camp.

I think at one time or another, she has indicated in her thoughts how much she hates the CoGA for what it has become, and was allied with the Wynstons. She also sent a very large amount of blackmail data to Charis.

But that does NOT make her on the Charisian side. It places her firmly against the corrupt forces in the Church, but she is still religious. She may well be concerned that Merlin is a demon, after all. I can see scenarios where she want to take out both the present hierarchy in the CoGA and the Shan-Wei worshipping folks on the other side.

I don't know how she would play that, although getting Merlin to Zion could be a plot on her part. For that matter, do you think the mention of facial recognition of people entering and leaving the Temple by Nahrmahn and OWL could be another "rifle over the fireplace"?

Could you imagine Cayleb discovering that Merlin was taken to the Temple (no idea how), and with Mychail and Nimue to help, recruiting a bunch of Marines to grab the advanced assault rifles and attack the Temple on the assault shuttle?

Just trying to think outside the box, because I don't even know how many dimensions DW's box has!

-- Bob G

Another possible twist would be Clyntan stockpiling gunpowder in the Temple near Ducharin's quarters. He tries to 'kill' Ducharin but Aivah learns of this plot and rescues him. The explosion goes off and Clyntan declare him dead but there is no body and he resurfaces. Clyntan was using the ghost of Pei Wei's action to embolden the faithful. Ducharin says "Angels rescued him" and that Charis did not cause this.