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Ships of the wall

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Re: Ships of the wall
Post by JohnS   » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:31 am

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SYED wrote:The league ship of the wall are just floating targets with the new weaponry, even if they do get it soon, the ships would need extensive refits. It might be quicker to just build new ships. So why not sell these ships on. The oldest first. lots of people may buy them with out realising they are no longer the ships needed for the line.
They really do need the funds.


Whatever price the SLN asks, Manticore can undercut! They have all these slightly used League SDs... :D The League would be providing a use for them at last, since it would be another form of economic warfare.

And if the League hesitates due to "warlord concerns", Manticore has no such compunctions. They want the League to split.

The real issue for a potential customer, as has been pointed out before, are the problems with crewing them.
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Re: Ships of the wall
Post by fester   » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:12 pm

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Add in Mannerhein having at least dreadnoghts and assuming several other Self Defense Forces in the Solarian League with wallers. Problably safe to assume Asgard has a waller force as well to balance against the Andermani.

Dafmeister wrote:Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I can remember we only know of eight forces that have SDs at all:

- The Royal Manticoran Navy

- The Grayson Space Navy (including the Protector's Own, though I believe it's technically an independent force)

- The Republic of Haven Navy

- The Imperial Andermani Navy

- The Solarian League Navy

- The Erewhonese Navy (I'm not sure what the official name of this one is)

- The Beowulf System Defence Force

- The Mesan Alignment Navy (and no-one else knows the Detweiler-class exists, though if ONI, NavInt and Sword Intelligence aren't assuming that something like it does exist then they're all off my Christmas card list)

I have to wonder how many, if any, of the other SD-operating forces are outside the League. It wouldn't surprise me if they're all League member SDFs, in which case they're likely to be as good or better than SLN-standard, given some of RFCs comments, though perhaps without the Fleet 2000 upgrades like Halo. If that's the case, then the SLN is at or near the bottom of the tree when it comes to ships of the wall, and very much trading on its reputation.
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Re: Ships of the wall
Post by fester   » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:16 pm

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JohnS wrote:
And if the League hesitates due to "warlord concerns", Manticore has no such compunctions. They want the League to split.

The real issue for a potential customer, as has been pointed out before, are the problems with crewing them.


Disagree. Manticore has warlord concerns as well. Remember, Manticore is a trading empire. If there is too much low level chaos in the Shell and Verge, where there are multiple Silesias during the war years scenarios, Manticore can't profitably trade there. Manticore needs reasonably well organized and well governed break-away blocs to form. They can't afford complete anarchy.
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Re: Ships of the wall
Post by kzt   » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:24 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:Didn't the Talbott system (not to be confused with the quadrant), one of the minor Manticoran Alliance members from the first war, have yards capable of at least repairing SDs?

Talbot had Manticore type SD yards, and was producing SDs during the 1st war. There was, IIRC, an internal monolog by White Haven about warship yards and production in book 3-5.
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Re: Ships of the wall
Post by Theemile   » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:44 pm

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JohnS wrote:
SYED wrote:The league ship of the wall are just floating targets with the new weaponry, even if they do get it soon, the ships would need extensive refits. It might be quicker to just build new ships. So why not sell these ships on. The oldest first. lots of people may buy them with out realising they are no longer the ships needed for the line.
They really do need the funds.


Whatever price the SLN asks, Manticore can undercut! They have all these slightly used League SDs... :D The League would be providing a use for them at last, since it would be another form of economic warfare.

And if the League hesitates due to "warlord concerns", Manticore has no such compunctions. They want the League to split.

The real issue for a potential customer, as has been pointed out before, are the problems with crewing them.



Another point - the SLN needs it's remaining active wall to cow the non-GA powers.
So what can it sell - the reserve.

But the reserve is not upgraded to modern specs and is not in usable condition - each ship will require months in maintenance slips just to move. Who is going to buy a 200 year old SD who can't move on it's own and still has autocannon for defenses? To bring it up to salable specs, they need to use SLN resources the SLN can't afford to waste.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Ships of the wall
Post by NortonIDaughter   » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:20 pm

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I think the Maya sector could use some old SLN capital ships, if the GA feels like sharing... after all, they'll only be using them against other SLN ships until they finish building their pretty new navy. :D
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Re: Ships of the wall
Post by TheMonster   » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:52 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:Didn't the Talbott system (not to be confused with the quadrant), one of the minor Manticoran Alliance members from the first war, have yards capable of at least repairing SDs?
At the risk of being called names for it, I'll point out that one of the best tools for not confusing the Talbot system with the Talbott Quadrant is to spell them correctly.

I suppose we can blame DW for making two names that differ only by a doubled consonant, but one of the things I appreciate about his world-building is that he allows people and places to have similar if not identical names, just like the real world.
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Re: Ships of the wall
Post by TheMonster   » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:06 pm

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NortonIDaughter wrote:I think the Maya sector could use some old SLN capital ships, if the GA feels like sharing... after all, they'll only be using them against other SLN ships until they finish building their pretty new navy. :D
They'd need to file the serial numbers off those wallers, and figure out an explanation for where they came from. Maya is trying to stay under the radar, which is why a lot of their ships are officially Erewhonese units for now. If they suddenly have a bunch of Scientists that might get someone thinking about the ships Crandall and Filareta lost to the Manties. They don't want anyone (other than the GA) thinking they're working with the Manties, or the Mandarins might send Battle Fleet out to crush them.

Besides, the ships the Carlucci Group is building for Maya are better than Scientists anyway. As the new SD(P)s come off the Bolthole lines, there are going to be some RHN ships decommissioned so that their crews can be retrained on them. There's a decent chance those will be reflagged as REN, and some of them will have Maya Sector "loaners". Even pre-KH wallers would be far better than Scientists.
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Residial $Value$ Greater As Scrap Or As Something Else?
Post by HB of CJ   » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:38 pm

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What bring more $value$? Do they scrap all the reserve Sollie SDs for components and basic materiels or do they de-mil them and sell off the hulks as functioning unarmed very large starships?

There has to be a use for such expensive, but very old starships. Cheap long range colony ships? Might need a lot of those eventualy. Accommodation ships? Cheap forts? Expediant freighters?

Or are the components valuable enough to just recycle the hulls and use all the expensive parts for needfull projects, like a new fleet of very fast Sollie merchant hulls? Dunno. HB of CJ (old coot)
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Re: Residial $Value$ Greater As Scrap Or As Something Else?
Post by SWM   » Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:40 pm

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HB of CJ wrote:What bring more $value$? Do they scrap all the reserve Sollie SDs for components and basic materiels or do they de-mil them and sell off the hulks as functioning unarmed very large starships?

There has to be a use for such expensive, but very old starships. Cheap long range colony ships? Might need a lot of those eventualy. Accommodation ships? Cheap forts? Expediant freighters?

Or are the components valuable enough to just recycle the hulls and use all the expensive parts for needfull projects, like a new fleet of very fast Sollie merchant hulls? Dunno. HB of CJ (old coot)

Not really. It would cost more to 'de-mil' them than they would be worth afterward.
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