The SLN commerce raiding strategy WILL work.

SWM wrote:

pldew wrote:
Who was talking about them? I was under the impression that the captured SDs topic was similar to that of grav lances, and agree. I don't see how that relates to the topic of SDs the SLN still controls. Am I missing something?

Nobody has been talking about them for a while. Theemile has simply been using that under his automatic signature for months, since the last time it was discussed.

So, that's what I was missing. A signature line. That makes sense. Thanks.

pldew wrote:

SWM wrote:Nobody has been talking about them for a while. Theemile has simply been using that under his automatic signature for months, since the last time it was discussed.

So, that's what I was missing. A signature line. That makes sense. Thanks.

Sorry for the confusion

Borealis wrote:

kzt wrote:That's why they have fast firing 5" guns. The Haven grasers are used for missile defense, it's kind of unclear how useful this is, but it didn't appear to be something that Haven stopped doing. So I'd guess they can in fact target really small, really fast moving targets.

You have a very good point about the smaller batteries on an Iowa-class. But wouldn't those smaller guns be the equivalent of the PDC's with the faster firing time and accuracy capability?

Main battery mounts are employed in the missile defense role, so they don't have any fundamental problems with accuracy to hit a LAC, compared to PDC.

Whitecold wrote:Main battery mounts are employed in the missile defense role, so they don't have any fundamental problems with accuracy to hit a LAC, compared to PDC.

Well at 1.4 light seconds a CA(L) was able to miss a Mars-class with one of 3 lasers. Both grasers hit though. They had hours of tracking and refinement time including using drones. Those weapons as used in the Honorverse are not all that.

Just a note from HoS the Mars Dimensions: 607 x 73 x 61 m. Shrike-B Dimensions: 72 × 20 × 20 m. Notice the LAC is about the beam area of the Mars bow.

Lastly what Textev is there that the SLN is using the main armament in this fashion. From:
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/128/1
Bold is my emphasis.

... The People's Navy, on the other hand, has never been as happy with its counter-missile capability and so has accepted larger and more massive fire control arrangements to give its main batteries better targeting discrimination against very small targets in the missile engagement range. (Which could also have a few implications for LAC engaging, too, now couldn't it?)

Enjoy,
T2M

PS another thanks to Joe Buckley for having a readily available quote.

Since my post is the one that started the discussion, when I asked about the comparison between older SLN SD grasers and the improved Manty LAC grasers, what I was wondering was if they were approaching equivalency. After all, what constitutes a BC graser is heavier now than it was at the start of the war. Add in the new improved grav lens and I was thinking that new LACs now have the same energy mounts as the old SLN units. The LACs also have better sidewalls and the bow and stern walls. Therefore, at extreme range, the LACs would have a slight advantage. Crossing the T at extreme range should let LACs score significant damage without much danger.

In addition, with the use of Dazzlers and Dragon's Teeth, LACs on a high speed pass (say 50,000 KPS) would pass through the entire energy range of the SDs during the lifetime of the EW drones. With that kind of distraction, they might even be reasonably safe.

thinkstoomuch wrote:

Whitecold wrote:Main battery mounts are employed in the missile defense role, so they don't have any fundamental problems with accuracy to hit a LAC, compared to PDC.

Well at 1.4 light seconds a CA(L) was able to miss a Mars-class with one of 3 lasers. Both grasers hit though. They had hours of tracking and refinement time including using drones. Those weapons as used in the Honorverse are not all that.

Just a note from HoS the Mars Dimensions: 607 x 73 x 61 m. Shrike-B Dimensions: 72 × 20 × 20 m. Notice the LAC is about the beam area of the Mars bow.

Lastly what Textev is there that the SLN is using the main armament in this fashion. From:
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/128/1
Bold is my emphasis.

... The People's Navy, on the other hand, has never been as happy with its counter-missile capability and so has accepted larger and more massive fire control arrangements to give its main batteries better targeting discrimination against very small targets in the missile engagement range. (Which could also have a few implications for LAC engaging, too, now couldn't it?)

Enjoy,
T2M

PS another thanks to Joe Buckley for having a readily available quote.

One of the reasons traditional capitol ships had dozens of medium large mounts (and lasers to boot) was the sidewalls and wedges (and ecm) made it difficult to see exactly where inside the wedge the ship actually was. Manty advancements and Grayson wisdom made it possible to get a high hit % for each shot, allowing Manty and Grayson new construction to drop the lasers and switch to all large grasers.

The Mars killed at Nuncio was hit down the throat, without sidewalls or wedges blocking sensors, but ECM still made it difficult to get hits.

Besides, no one ever said the Havenites ever got a high % of missile kills from the main batteries - just they used them in a defensive role. Since power is cheap, even a low hit % on top of the PDLCs is better then just the PDLCs.

The Cataphract missiles "from Technodyne" really don't fit in the tubes of most of the SLN ships. Even if there were a significant number available (and the seem to have to be shipped in from a place nobody in the SLN actually knows about) they are primary pod based for the SLN.
So dam few of the ships in FF and BF are going to be able to carry any out commerce raiding unless they are dragging pods along tractored to the hulls or in freighters traveling along with the raiders and passing them out to the warships just short of arriving at targets.
The advantage of doing that- if the Cataphracts are available- is that the SLN raiding force could at least have a chance at getting off a volley at any minor hypercapable force defending a GA or Liberated Protectorate Sysetm and damage or destroy enough of the defenders to let the attacking force "take" the system. They will have to let it go again because they are not likely to beat off any scaled responce from the GA and so would want to head for the next target after inflicting what infrastructure damage they came to do. This will only work for a short time as word spreads and defenders do the prudent thing and stay out of the range of potentialDDM SLN missiles. That just means that the defenders will manuver to stay out of range and shoot up the attackers. If the defenders are older light units and only have the old style single drive weapons, they can still manuver in front of the attackers and just launch their rounds without lighting off the missiles drives and let the attackers run into the missiles powered engagemente envelopes before lighting the drives. There is also that whole question of superior SEM ECM and decoys plus drones to control the defending missile volleys. Once an attacker is commited to its attack vector it is going to end up accepting having to fly into the initial ballistic phase or manuver away from it and screw with its own ability to attack the defending force or orbitals.

Commerce raiding has nothing to do with getting in fights with warships. The effective missile range of Manticoran or Haven freighters is zero meters.

KNick wrote:Since my post is the one that started the discussion, when I asked about the comparison between older SLN SD grasers and the improved Manty LAC grasers, what I was wondering was if they were approaching equivalency. After all, what constitutes a BC graser is heavier now than it was at the start of the war. Add in the new improved grav lens and I was thinking that new LACs now have the same energy mounts as the old SLN units. The LACs also have better sidewalls and the bow and stern walls. Therefore, at extreme range, the LACs would have a slight advantage. Crossing the T at extreme range should let LACs score significant damage without much danger.

In addition, with the use of Dazzlers and Dragon's Teeth, LACs on a high speed pass (say 50,000 KPS) would pass through the entire energy range of the SDs during the lifetime of the EW drones. With that kind of distraction, they might even be reasonably safe.

The Shrike B does have grasers capable of penetrating SD armour. The question would be if Solly grade sensors would be able to detect an approaching Shrike under stealth soon enough to do any good. My guess is probably not. A wing of Shrikes could probably inflict some real damage on a SLN SD squadron. In that situation the Mark One eyeball probably doesn't help much. Human reflexes are too slow for the sort of fight this would turn out to be. Any hits acqiured on Shrikes that way would be accidental.

My signature is "Don"

Don

kzt wrote:Commerce raiding has nothing to do with getting in fights with warships. The effective missile range of Manticoran or Haven freighters is zero meters.

It has an awful lot to do with getting in fights with warships. Manticore knows of the value of its commerce, and how to protect it. Freighters will travel in convoys with warships accompanying them, as well as in-system LACs and system defense pods covering them in normal space.
Of course the attacker wants to find uncovered singlets, but I doubt the SL will find many.