Steam Engines

pokermind wrote:So far no seamless tubing extruders in canon to make flash boilers, not they are not coming. Besides boilers thick walled steel tubing to make rifle barrels are needed

Early steam engines used low pressure and although huge (they filled buildings) produced limited horsepower in the 5-15 HP range. Early boiler plates were caulked with lead and canvas, 70 PSI was high pressure, and higher melted the lead leading to very un-good results.

Poker

Not sure Chaaris doesn't already have seamless tubes capable of taking high pressure. Their factories are using pneumatics after all.

There is also the possibility that Fultyn and Zhwaigair WILL tell Clyntahn that building the steam engine requires adopting other Charisian developments, such as the universal measurements to be practical or feasible. At which point Clyntahn can try to implement his own version of standardization (which will piss him off as he HAS NOT wanted to do that) or declare the steam engine to be violation of the Proscriptions. In fact one possibility I see have considered is Clyntahn declaring the steam engine a tool of the devil should Dohlar receive a visit from the new King Haarald ships then having to implement the building of them anyway....

Incidentally Fultyn and Zhwaigair should survive saying no to Clyntahn, as they have demonstrated that they are useful (even critical) in arming the Jihad and I doubt Clyntahn's Right hand man (forget name) will allow either of them to be killed without letting Clyntahn know that their deaths will hurt the CoGA war effort. So long as they can demonstrate that they are effective and useful I doubt Clyntahn will kill them, similar to the logic as to why he keeps Duchairn around possibly even Thirsk.

There is always after the Jihad in the mind of Clyntahn to dispose of them....

Bottom line is that the MWW may have included the steam engine snippet for more political or theological reasons, it certainly will not look good if it seems Clyntahn keeps changing what is forbidden and what is allowable under the Proscriptions.

PeterZ wrote:Not sure Chaaris doesn't already have seamless tubes capable of taking high pressure. Their factories are using pneumatics after all.

For all practical purposes, Copper tube is more than adequate for pneumatic machinery.
Until you get to the very large sizes where normal Iron or Steel is sufficient.
Seamless is NOT necessary, though it may be used if available at the right price.

What is vital, for a production line, is reliable FLEXIBLE tubing for the final "drop-to-the-tool". Reinforced rubber is adequate but in modern terms nylon is better.

chrisd wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Not sure Chaaris doesn't already have seamless tubes capable of taking high pressure. Their factories are using pneumatics after all.

For all practical purposes, Copper tube is more than adequate for pneumatic machinery.
Until you get to the very large sizes where normal Iron or Steel is sufficient.
Seamless is NOT necessary, though it may be used if available at the right price.

What is vital, for a production line, is reliable FLEXIBLE tubing for the final "drop-to-the-tool". Reinforced rubber is adequate but in modern terms nylon is better.

Yeah, the flexible tubes are necessary. My point was that fixed seamless tubes form the trunk of the pneumatic system. Flexible high pressure hoses only connect the final stages to the machine.

Copper tubing for plumbing or even extruders to make cases for cartriges are already on hand. High pressure tubing for pneumatics and high pressure air tanks are also on hand. That portion of the necessary tech to make flash boilers are already on hand. Using coal gas to light streets and buildings are being used already. All that is needed to make lighter weight steam engines is realigning the existing tech into a workable design.

PeterZ wrote:Not sure Chaaris doesn't already have seamless tubes capable of taking high pressure. Their factories are using pneumatics after all.

I can remember RFC stating the with regards to piping/plumbing, Safehold is more advanced than average....

How advanced? We'll have to try and find the posting where RFC mentions it.

MWadwell wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Not sure Chaaris doesn't already have seamless tubes capable of taking high pressure. Their factories are using pneumatics after all.

I can remember RFC stating the with regards to piping/plumbing, Safehold is more advanced than average....

How advanced? We'll have to try and find the posting where RFC mentions it.

Found it - http://forums.davidweber.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5114&start=25

He states:
"True, but I think it should be fairly obvious from other aspects of Safeholdian plumbing and "support infrastructure" which have been mentioned in passing that the locals have developed quite sophisticated techniques in aspects we don't normally associate with pre-steam technology."

PeterZ wrote:Yeah, the flexible tubes are necessary. My point was that fixed seamless tubes form the trunk of the pneumatic system. Flexible high pressure hoses only connect the final stages to the machine.

Copper tubing for plumbing or even extruders to make cases for cartriges are already on hand. High pressure tubing for pneumatics and high pressure air tanks are also on hand. That portion of the necessary tech to make flash boilers are already on hand. Using coal gas to light streets and buildings are being used already. All that is needed to make lighter weight steam engines is realigning the existing tech into a workable design.

For pneumatics, you want brass (or steel) tubing, not copper. Luckily the alloy needed can be the same one as used in rifle cartridges.

Flexible hoses are indeed also mandatory and unless there is an equivalent to hevea, it means chemical industry.

At low pressures ,leather seal may be acceptable, but they dont handle being cooked by steam very well

CJK" Wrote:
Incidentally Fultyn and Zhwaigair should survive saying no to Clyntahn, as they have demonstrated that they are useful (even critical) in arming the Jihad and their deaths will hurt the CoGA war effort. So long as they are effective and useful Clyntahn (won't) kill them, (same) logic as to why he keeps Duchairn (and) Thirsk.

There is always after the Jihad to dispose of them....

Saint Just anyone?

I remember overhearing a couple of steampunks talking about how an early steam engine in my area had rifle barrels for tubes in the boiler. I have my doubts about the rifling (why go to that work), but musket barrels would make acceptable tubes as long as you could weld them in place acceptably. These guys were also operating a steam tractor, and driving it around the tractor show.

PeterZ wrote:

pokermind wrote:So far no seamless tubing extruders in canon to make flash boilers, not they are not coming. Besides boilers thick walled steel tubing to make rifle barrels are needed

Early steam engines used low pressure and although huge (they filled buildings) produced limited horsepower in the 5-15 HP range. Early boiler plates were caulked with lead and canvas, 70 PSI was high pressure, and higher melted the lead leading to very un-good results.

Poker

Not sure Chaaris doesn't already have seamless tubes capable of taking high pressure. Their factories are using pneumatics after all.

Castenea wrote:I remember overhearing a couple of steampunks talking about how an early steam engine in my area had rifle barrels for tubes in the boiler. I have my doubts about the rifling (why go to that work), but musket barrels would make acceptable tubes as long as you could weld them in place acceptably. These guys were also operating a steam tractor, and driving it around the tractor show.

For a long time it was stated that George Stevenson's "Rocket" had used Musket barrels as firetubes.

The tube bore is not adequate to make a good boiler as was proved when the replicas were built for "Rainhill 150" back in 1983.